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	<title>Comments on: Libertarian Coalitions</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/</link>
	<description>Just another geek in the geek kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Kennon</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/comment-page-1/#comment-13442</link>
		<dc:creator>Kennon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Nov 2010 21:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=4210#comment-13442</guid>
		<description>Libertarianism and Liberalism have always been conjoined. There are plenty of coalitions. To see what Libertarians are actually doing, see http://www.Libertarian-International.org and check out the growing articles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Libertarianism and Liberalism have always been conjoined. There are plenty of coalitions. To see what Libertarians are actually doing, see <a href="http://www.Libertarian-International.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.Libertarian-International.org</a> and check out the growing articles.</p>
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		<title>By: Argument ad Kochinem &#124; Trevor Burrus</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/comment-page-1/#comment-12204</link>
		<dc:creator>Argument ad Kochinem &#124; Trevor Burrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=4210#comment-12204</guid>
		<description>[...] I agree with my Cato colleague Julian Sanchez: I don&#8217;t particularly care about the answer to these questions other than the &#8220;boringly [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I agree with my Cato colleague Julian Sanchez: I don&#8217;t particularly care about the answer to these questions other than the &#8220;boringly [...]</p>
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		<title>By: By Definition, Schmibertarians Aren&#8217;t Libertarians &#124; Wintry Smile</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/comment-page-1/#comment-12196</link>
		<dc:creator>By Definition, Schmibertarians Aren&#8217;t Libertarians &#124; Wintry Smile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=4210#comment-12196</guid>
		<description>[...] note that the two names I&#8217;m most familiar with don&#8217;t fit the picture: Gene Healy and Julian Sanchez.  Of course there&#8217;s a selection bias there: the Cato figures I&#8217;m most likely to know [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] note that the two names I&#8217;m most familiar with don&#8217;t fit the picture: Gene Healy and Julian Sanchez.  Of course there&#8217;s a selection bias there: the Cato figures I&#8217;m most likely to know [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/comment-page-1/#comment-12089</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 12:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=4210#comment-12089</guid>
		<description>I should also add: since Hayek believes the truths of economics are analytic a priori, he&#039;s committed to a view from nowhere for their application (which dovetails nicely with Rawls&#039; veil of ignorance).  That is: if economic truths have nothing necessary to do with the world of experience, as Hayek claims, then to even begin to talk about economics in the world, you would have to abandon the first-person perspective, or at the very least consider that person to be something like Walt Whitman&#039;s &quot;I&quot;.  To access the synthetic mode of economics -- which is the only one worth discussing anyway -- you would have no logical ground, from the Hayekian perspective, to privilege the immediate object we conventionally refer to as the self.

So I want to strengthen my claim.  Not only would the Hayekian system not last without Rawls.  But from a purely theoretical standpoint, Hayek&#039;s system is a non-starter without Rawls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should also add: since Hayek believes the truths of economics are analytic a priori, he&#8217;s committed to a view from nowhere for their application (which dovetails nicely with Rawls&#8217; veil of ignorance).  That is: if economic truths have nothing necessary to do with the world of experience, as Hayek claims, then to even begin to talk about economics in the world, you would have to abandon the first-person perspective, or at the very least consider that person to be something like Walt Whitman&#8217;s &#8220;I&#8221;.  To access the synthetic mode of economics &#8212; which is the only one worth discussing anyway &#8212; you would have no logical ground, from the Hayekian perspective, to privilege the immediate object we conventionally refer to as the self.</p>
<p>So I want to strengthen my claim.  Not only would the Hayekian system not last without Rawls.  But from a purely theoretical standpoint, Hayek&#8217;s system is a non-starter without Rawls.</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/comment-page-1/#comment-12086</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 02:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=4210#comment-12086</guid>
		<description>Julian, in the 2006 piece, Lindsey suggests, for liberaltarianism to be coherent, there would need to be &quot;some kind of reconciliation between Hayek and Rawls.&quot; 

I interpret Hayek&#039;s advocacy for non-monopolized currency as brushing up against a polycentric legal system.  Rawls would have none of that since such a system would discard the veil of ignorance -- decisions would inherently be made without full regard for those outside one&#039;s own legal/currency system (even though the externalities created by those decisions would inevitably impact the outsiders).

But Hayek&#039;s ideal is only sustainable through a veil of ignorance, because only through a veil of ignorance can one grasp all the externalities.  Without it, the Hayekian is temped to distinguish between relevant externalities and irrelevant externalities.  The &quot;irrelevant&quot; externalities are relevant to some group that will inevitably disrupt the Hayekian system.  

That&#039;s not to say that monopolized currency/law is necessary for the Hayekian, only that to be a consistent Hayekian is to insert the veil of ignorance in economic decision making.  I think that would please Rawls and, whether or not it pleased Hayek, it would be the only consistent and sustainable application of Hayek&#039;s ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julian, in the 2006 piece, Lindsey suggests, for liberaltarianism to be coherent, there would need to be &#8220;some kind of reconciliation between Hayek and Rawls.&#8221; </p>
<p>I interpret Hayek&#8217;s advocacy for non-monopolized currency as brushing up against a polycentric legal system.  Rawls would have none of that since such a system would discard the veil of ignorance &#8212; decisions would inherently be made without full regard for those outside one&#8217;s own legal/currency system (even though the externalities created by those decisions would inevitably impact the outsiders).</p>
<p>But Hayek&#8217;s ideal is only sustainable through a veil of ignorance, because only through a veil of ignorance can one grasp all the externalities.  Without it, the Hayekian is temped to distinguish between relevant externalities and irrelevant externalities.  The &#8220;irrelevant&#8221; externalities are relevant to some group that will inevitably disrupt the Hayekian system.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s not to say that monopolized currency/law is necessary for the Hayekian, only that to be a consistent Hayekian is to insert the veil of ignorance in economic decision making.  I think that would please Rawls and, whether or not it pleased Hayek, it would be the only consistent and sustainable application of Hayek&#8217;s ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: More on Prospects for Liberaltarianism &#124; theConstitutional.org</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/comment-page-1/#comment-12001</link>
		<dc:creator>More on Prospects for Liberaltarianism &#124; theConstitutional.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jul 2010 22:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=4210#comment-12001</guid>
		<description>[...] originator of “liberaltarianism,” may have given up on the idea. But not all libertarians have. Julian Sanchez and Tim Lee have both written interesting responses to my recent post criticizing it. Sanchez argues [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] originator of “liberaltarianism,” may have given up on the idea. But not all libertarians have. Julian Sanchez and Tim Lee have both written interesting responses to my recent post criticizing it. Sanchez argues [...]</p>
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		<title>By: LarryM</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/comment-page-1/#comment-11998</link>
		<dc:creator>LarryM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=4210#comment-11998</guid>
		<description>And I have to ask bh - regarding &quot;hating social security just a little bit.&quot; It was my impression that most economically literate liberals would acknowledge that social security is conceptually a far from perfect program, and NOT what one would design if starting from scratch,but would argue (convincingly in my book) that it is a very beneficial program on balance, and for reasons of path dependancy and politics, should not be significantly modified.

Or are you going to defend social security as a near perfect retirement program?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I have to ask bh &#8211; regarding &#8220;hating social security just a little bit.&#8221; It was my impression that most economically literate liberals would acknowledge that social security is conceptually a far from perfect program, and NOT what one would design if starting from scratch,but would argue (convincingly in my book) that it is a very beneficial program on balance, and for reasons of path dependancy and politics, should not be significantly modified.</p>
<p>Or are you going to defend social security as a near perfect retirement program?</p>
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		<title>By: LarryM</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/comment-page-1/#comment-11997</link>
		<dc:creator>LarryM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=4210#comment-11997</guid>
		<description>Part of the problem is that certain libertarian-ish reforms in the economic realm that smart liberals might embrace in theory suffer from negative political salience. 

I think, for example, libertarians and liberals could agree on the destructiveness of the mortgage tax deduction. But politically ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of the problem is that certain libertarian-ish reforms in the economic realm that smart liberals might embrace in theory suffer from negative political salience. </p>
<p>I think, for example, libertarians and liberals could agree on the destructiveness of the mortgage tax deduction. But politically &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: b-psycho</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/comment-page-1/#comment-11995</link>
		<dc:creator>b-psycho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=4210#comment-11995</guid>
		<description>BH: isn&#039;t the whole point of liberalism from a civil liberties view that just because a loud plurality doesn&#039;t like something doesn&#039;t nullify the RIGHT to do it if it doesn&#039;t harm others?  What use is modern liberalism if it&#039;s stripped down to little more than slight adjustment of spending/taxation ratios?

To respond to Michael like you did is, IMO, to say &quot;liberalism is dead&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BH: isn&#8217;t the whole point of liberalism from a civil liberties view that just because a loud plurality doesn&#8217;t like something doesn&#8217;t nullify the RIGHT to do it if it doesn&#8217;t harm others?  What use is modern liberalism if it&#8217;s stripped down to little more than slight adjustment of spending/taxation ratios?</p>
<p>To respond to Michael like you did is, IMO, to say &#8220;liberalism is dead&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan D</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/07/14/libertarian-coalitions/comment-page-1/#comment-11994</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jul 2010 00:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=4210#comment-11994</guid>
		<description>As much as I’d like the Libertarian idea to work I think there are two problems even with the type of issue based coalitions you favor.  

The first the tendency for organizations that support causes that liberals typically support to take the standard left-wing position on issues that have nothing to do with their core mission.  Every feminist blog I’ve ever read makes it clear that opposing traditional gender norms is not enough feminism also requires supporting left-wing economic policies.  this seems to happen one just about every issue for example gay right groups are opposing Arizona’s immigration law(see: http://www.hrc.org/news/14563.htm) in this case a agree with them on the merits but it has nothing to do with their core mission and just as often they take positions that a disagree with, it seems like every anti-war rally was full of anti-capitalist rhetoric(from the organizers some participants will always talk about unrelated issues), the ACLU went to court to prevent Cleveland from starting a school voucher program(if they opposed the use of Pell grants at religious institutions I wouldn’t have a problem with this but they didn’t).  By contrast groups advocating free-market policies usually go to great lengths to avoid taking positions on social issues; this makes it much easier for libertarians to work with people who they disagree with on those issues.
The second issue is I don’t think most liberals will consistently support civil liberties.  If it’s a republican president violating civil liberties in response to Islamic terrorism Liberals will oppose it but if it’s Democratic president violating civil liberties in response to “right wing violence” I don’t think they’d say much(some would just as some conservatives like Bob Barr opposed Bush’s actions).  How many Democrats opposed the Patriot act when it was initially proposed by the Clinton administration after Oklahoma City?  The reaction of liberal bloggers to right violence over the past year and a half has caused my concerns to grow much deeper.  When the DHS report on right wing violence first came out I thought that the reaction of conservatives was way over the top, at the same time I felt the left was way too dismissive of legitimate concerns since there is long history of the federal government using a small number of violent extremists as a pretext to harass legitimate groups with similar views, the reaction if most on the left was “we trust Obama not to do that”(to his credit he hasn’t but I don’t believe anyone should be trusted like that).  Since then many on the left have been egger to use a small number of indefensible violent acts to condemn a much larger swath of people.  I dislike both Limbaugh and O’Riely but to claim the either of them is in any way responsible for a violent act committed by one of their listeners is absurd.  This type of hysteria has been going on for the past year and it driving me nuts(look at the way Balloon Juice ripped Jesse Walker for suggesting to people on the left were blowing violent acts out of proportion http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/25/law-enforcement-is-in-on-the-smear/  http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/24/thick-as-a-brick) look at the way Bill Clinton used guilt by association to group nonviolent people with timothy McVeigh.  If the Obama administration proposed draconian measures to clamp down on right wing violence how many on the left would object? Several left-wing blogs called for the Obama administration to violate the civil liberties of the Hutaree militia.  I’ve seen this type of inconsistency from the left on other occasions as well. For example many on the left are justifiably upset about overly harsh penalties for environmentalist who  engage in non-violent civil disobedience but then turn and support harsh penalties for people who non-violently block abortion clinics it’s clear that they only support civil liberties when they agree with the persons message.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As much as I’d like the Libertarian idea to work I think there are two problems even with the type of issue based coalitions you favor.  </p>
<p>The first the tendency for organizations that support causes that liberals typically support to take the standard left-wing position on issues that have nothing to do with their core mission.  Every feminist blog I’ve ever read makes it clear that opposing traditional gender norms is not enough feminism also requires supporting left-wing economic policies.  this seems to happen one just about every issue for example gay right groups are opposing Arizona’s immigration law(see: <a href="http://www.hrc.org/news/14563.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.hrc.org/news/14563.htm</a>) in this case a agree with them on the merits but it has nothing to do with their core mission and just as often they take positions that a disagree with, it seems like every anti-war rally was full of anti-capitalist rhetoric(from the organizers some participants will always talk about unrelated issues), the ACLU went to court to prevent Cleveland from starting a school voucher program(if they opposed the use of Pell grants at religious institutions I wouldn’t have a problem with this but they didn’t).  By contrast groups advocating free-market policies usually go to great lengths to avoid taking positions on social issues; this makes it much easier for libertarians to work with people who they disagree with on those issues.<br />
The second issue is I don’t think most liberals will consistently support civil liberties.  If it’s a republican president violating civil liberties in response to Islamic terrorism Liberals will oppose it but if it’s Democratic president violating civil liberties in response to “right wing violence” I don’t think they’d say much(some would just as some conservatives like Bob Barr opposed Bush’s actions).  How many Democrats opposed the Patriot act when it was initially proposed by the Clinton administration after Oklahoma City?  The reaction of liberal bloggers to right violence over the past year and a half has caused my concerns to grow much deeper.  When the DHS report on right wing violence first came out I thought that the reaction of conservatives was way over the top, at the same time I felt the left was way too dismissive of legitimate concerns since there is long history of the federal government using a small number of violent extremists as a pretext to harass legitimate groups with similar views, the reaction if most on the left was “we trust Obama not to do that”(to his credit he hasn’t but I don’t believe anyone should be trusted like that).  Since then many on the left have been egger to use a small number of indefensible violent acts to condemn a much larger swath of people.  I dislike both Limbaugh and O’Riely but to claim the either of them is in any way responsible for a violent act committed by one of their listeners is absurd.  This type of hysteria has been going on for the past year and it driving me nuts(look at the way Balloon Juice ripped Jesse Walker for suggesting to people on the left were blowing violent acts out of proportion <a href="http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/25/law-enforcement-is-in-on-the-smear/" rel="nofollow">http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/25/law-enforcement-is-in-on-the-smear/</a>  <a href="http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/24/thick-as-a-brick" rel="nofollow">http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/24/thick-as-a-brick</a>) look at the way Bill Clinton used guilt by association to group nonviolent people with timothy McVeigh.  If the Obama administration proposed draconian measures to clamp down on right wing violence how many on the left would object? Several left-wing blogs called for the Obama administration to violate the civil liberties of the Hutaree militia.  I’ve seen this type of inconsistency from the left on other occasions as well. For example many on the left are justifiably upset about overly harsh penalties for environmentalist who  engage in non-violent civil disobedience but then turn and support harsh penalties for people who non-violently block abortion clinics it’s clear that they only support civil liberties when they agree with the persons message.</p>
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