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	<title>Comments on: Pareto-Ideologies</title>
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	<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/</link>
	<description>Just another geek in the geek kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Online Discourse Part 2: Pareto Ideologies. &#171; The Ego Chronicles</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/comment-page-1/#comment-9298</link>
		<dc:creator>Online Discourse Part 2: Pareto Ideologies. &#171; The Ego Chronicles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 08:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3508#comment-9298</guid>
		<description>[...] on September 9, 2009  Julian Sanchez comes to the same conclusions that I came to, in an interesting post:  Given that my current idée fixe seems to be the depressing rarity with which people actually [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on September 9, 2009  Julian Sanchez comes to the same conclusions that I came to, in an interesting post:  Given that my current idée fixe seems to be the depressing rarity with which people actually [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/comment-page-1/#comment-9108</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 01:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3508#comment-9108</guid>
		<description>Justin-
   What I have in mind goes a bit beyond the principle of charity as traditionally conceived, insofar as it&#039;s more unabashedly transformative, but certainly that was in the back of my head when I wrote this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin-<br />
   What I have in mind goes a bit beyond the principle of charity as traditionally conceived, insofar as it&#8217;s more unabashedly transformative, but certainly that was in the back of my head when I wrote this.</p>
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		<title>By: A-gu</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/comment-page-1/#comment-9106</link>
		<dc:creator>A-gu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3508#comment-9106</guid>
		<description>This reminds me of a critical component of high school debating skills -- the ability to argue both sides forcefully and with conviction. At the end of each debate, I&#039;d always find myself rehashing the arguments in my mind, often convinced I was clearly correct and my opponent was absurd -- whichever side I was on that particular hour. 

This experience helped lead me to the insight that human beings are absurdly attached to silly labels and political &quot;teams&quot; even when they make no sense on their own. 

And it also helped me realize that more often than not, political &quot;opponents&quot; are people who have similar if not identical  interests, but a different understandings of the facts involved and differing expectations of how certain policies will affect things on the ground. That&#039;s a far cry from the average view, which is that the other side is a bunch of idiots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This reminds me of a critical component of high school debating skills &#8212; the ability to argue both sides forcefully and with conviction. At the end of each debate, I&#8217;d always find myself rehashing the arguments in my mind, often convinced I was clearly correct and my opponent was absurd &#8212; whichever side I was on that particular hour. </p>
<p>This experience helped lead me to the insight that human beings are absurdly attached to silly labels and political &#8220;teams&#8221; even when they make no sense on their own. </p>
<p>And it also helped me realize that more often than not, political &#8220;opponents&#8221; are people who have similar if not identical  interests, but a different understandings of the facts involved and differing expectations of how certain policies will affect things on the ground. That&#8217;s a far cry from the average view, which is that the other side is a bunch of idiots.</p>
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		<title>By: Beeshma</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/comment-page-1/#comment-9105</link>
		<dc:creator>Beeshma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 18:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3508#comment-9105</guid>
		<description>You sir, are a raving lunatic, who has waded too deep into the weeds of your own ideological way to view politics.

But that said, I support your attempt to convince neandertal conservatives that their worldview of defensive, hostile-to-other attitudes might be a liability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You sir, are a raving lunatic, who has waded too deep into the weeds of your own ideological way to view politics.</p>
<p>But that said, I support your attempt to convince neandertal conservatives that their worldview of defensive, hostile-to-other attitudes might be a liability.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/comment-page-1/#comment-9104</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 15:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3508#comment-9104</guid>
		<description>Wow, you should really stay away from Darwin; the phenomena you describe have nothing to do with Darwinian selection. Using bad evolutionary metaphors is harmful, especially given the generally horrible understanding of such concepts in the first place. Darwin/evolution have been terribly abused, like the concept of irony--the incorrect definition has superseded the actual definition.
What you are describing far more closely resembled artificial selection, i.e. domestication, than any natural evolutionary process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, you should really stay away from Darwin; the phenomena you describe have nothing to do with Darwinian selection. Using bad evolutionary metaphors is harmful, especially given the generally horrible understanding of such concepts in the first place. Darwin/evolution have been terribly abused, like the concept of irony&#8211;the incorrect definition has superseded the actual definition.<br />
What you are describing far more closely resembled artificial selection, i.e. domestication, than any natural evolutionary process.</p>
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		<title>By: jbahr</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/comment-page-1/#comment-9103</link>
		<dc:creator>jbahr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3508#comment-9103</guid>
		<description>Very thoughtful, Julian, glad I found your site (linked by Andrew).

Having read what seems like a zillion comments on various sites (the Salon/Slate/TrueSlant/Atlantic bloggers, 538, et cetera), I really seems that individuals&#039; particular mix fear and hope drive their self-identified philosophy more often than not.  Most of the time, of course, self-identified ideology is simply incorrect and people will often act in ways that are antithetical to their stated beliefs (which permits pollers to find that half the country is wary of evolution, for example, as they sign up for their next flu shot).  Liberals tend to vest their hope in ways I find attractive and their fears in pockets of paranoia (but, as Woody Allen famously noted, perhaps justifiably) that are different than those of libertarians and conservatives.  Witness the conservative arguments in the current health care debate:  many are based upon the fear that one thing (say, end-of-life counseling) will morph into another (say, death panels).  The strategy (when you have the votes) may just be to do what&#039;s right and let them get used to it.  The fear abates (or perhaps becomes focused elsewhere).  When you look at the history of conservative objections to progressive policies, it&#039;s a seemingly endless cascade of things that are just fine now (Social Security, the end of miscegenation laws, . . .) but were feared for their future effects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very thoughtful, Julian, glad I found your site (linked by Andrew).</p>
<p>Having read what seems like a zillion comments on various sites (the Salon/Slate/TrueSlant/Atlantic bloggers, 538, et cetera), I really seems that individuals&#8217; particular mix fear and hope drive their self-identified philosophy more often than not.  Most of the time, of course, self-identified ideology is simply incorrect and people will often act in ways that are antithetical to their stated beliefs (which permits pollers to find that half the country is wary of evolution, for example, as they sign up for their next flu shot).  Liberals tend to vest their hope in ways I find attractive and their fears in pockets of paranoia (but, as Woody Allen famously noted, perhaps justifiably) that are different than those of libertarians and conservatives.  Witness the conservative arguments in the current health care debate:  many are based upon the fear that one thing (say, end-of-life counseling) will morph into another (say, death panels).  The strategy (when you have the votes) may just be to do what&#8217;s right and let them get used to it.  The fear abates (or perhaps becomes focused elsewhere).  When you look at the history of conservative objections to progressive policies, it&#8217;s a seemingly endless cascade of things that are just fine now (Social Security, the end of miscegenation laws, . . .) but were feared for their future effects.</p>
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		<title>By: CraiginKC</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/comment-page-1/#comment-9102</link>
		<dc:creator>CraiginKC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3508#comment-9102</guid>
		<description>I appreciate the reminder that only by being able to answer your opponents best arguments (or anticipating what they&#039;re best arguments could be if they were capable of coming up with them) can you effectively begin to persuade. This is actually a central premise of debating (the organized kind engaged in by high school and college students). 

I think this speaks precisely to the miserable condition of the current brand of public discourse. It appears that both politicians and especially the punditocracy on the 24-hour news networks have come to specialize in highlighting the very worst arguments of their opponents, and using them as case-studies for why the opposition is too stupid to be trusted.  In fact, typically, the most outrageous comments on either side of the political spectrum are put forward as exemplary of what the other arguments regarding an issue might be. Lies get more television coverage than thoughtful commentary, and through a perverse-Darwinism, the least fit often rise to the top of our public awareness as a result (e.g. &quot;birth certificates&quot; and &quot;death panels&quot;). I actually think that Obama, personally, is distinctive precisely because he  tries to anticipate his opponent&#039;s best arguments, project respect for them, and address them. Ironically, this may be the &quot;weakness&quot; of his political strategy--rendering his message &quot;muddled&quot; or insufficiently &quot;forceful.&quot; In today&#039;s political arena, I wonder if what is clearly a virtue at the level of an individual comes to be a &quot;failure&quot; in the context of Party politics and promoting an agenda. I think the relationship of Sanchez&#039;s point to the larger, structural features of public discourse (how are ideas disseminated? by whom? why and whose interest&#039;s are served?, etc.), is the only thing missing from this essay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate the reminder that only by being able to answer your opponents best arguments (or anticipating what they&#8217;re best arguments could be if they were capable of coming up with them) can you effectively begin to persuade. This is actually a central premise of debating (the organized kind engaged in by high school and college students). </p>
<p>I think this speaks precisely to the miserable condition of the current brand of public discourse. It appears that both politicians and especially the punditocracy on the 24-hour news networks have come to specialize in highlighting the very worst arguments of their opponents, and using them as case-studies for why the opposition is too stupid to be trusted.  In fact, typically, the most outrageous comments on either side of the political spectrum are put forward as exemplary of what the other arguments regarding an issue might be. Lies get more television coverage than thoughtful commentary, and through a perverse-Darwinism, the least fit often rise to the top of our public awareness as a result (e.g. &#8220;birth certificates&#8221; and &#8220;death panels&#8221;). I actually think that Obama, personally, is distinctive precisely because he  tries to anticipate his opponent&#8217;s best arguments, project respect for them, and address them. Ironically, this may be the &#8220;weakness&#8221; of his political strategy&#8211;rendering his message &#8220;muddled&#8221; or insufficiently &#8220;forceful.&#8221; In today&#8217;s political arena, I wonder if what is clearly a virtue at the level of an individual comes to be a &#8220;failure&#8221; in the context of Party politics and promoting an agenda. I think the relationship of Sanchez&#8217;s point to the larger, structural features of public discourse (how are ideas disseminated? by whom? why and whose interest&#8217;s are served?, etc.), is the only thing missing from this essay.</p>
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		<title>By: Leonard</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/comment-page-1/#comment-9101</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 09:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3508#comment-9101</guid>
		<description>Thanks Marvin for articulating thoughts that I have had and found missing in so much of what passes for commentary today. I too remember the college philosophy classes that stressed the value of putting your opponent&#039;s argument in it best possible form before beginning a refutation. This approach served me in the practice of law. 

Now, if there was some way to reduce the intellectual dishonesty that is so much a part of of public discourse perhaps we could make more progress in deciding public policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Marvin for articulating thoughts that I have had and found missing in so much of what passes for commentary today. I too remember the college philosophy classes that stressed the value of putting your opponent&#8217;s argument in it best possible form before beginning a refutation. This approach served me in the practice of law. </p>
<p>Now, if there was some way to reduce the intellectual dishonesty that is so much a part of of public discourse perhaps we could make more progress in deciding public policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Russell</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/comment-page-1/#comment-9100</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 06:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3508#comment-9100</guid>
		<description>Minor comment:  You refer to the value to the Darwinian struggle or the chess game (&quot;You can’t see your own best move unless you have some sense of what your opponent’s best response would be&quot;).    You do go on from there to suggest the more wide-open benefits of a better version of an other-side position from the point of view of the other side and your own, but  on the level of the binary contest you could also have mentioned another benefit:  By doing this, you put yourself in a much readier psychological position to recognize and &lt;i&gt;steal or cannibalize&lt;/i&gt; the other side&#039;s best stuff in service to your own fiendish aims - a productive and creative perspective.  :o)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Minor comment:  You refer to the value to the Darwinian struggle or the chess game (&#8221;You can’t see your own best move unless you have some sense of what your opponent’s best response would be&#8221;).    You do go on from there to suggest the more wide-open benefits of a better version of an other-side position from the point of view of the other side and your own, but  on the level of the binary contest you could also have mentioned another benefit:  By doing this, you put yourself in a much readier psychological position to recognize and <i>steal or cannibalize</i> the other side&#8217;s best stuff in service to your own fiendish aims &#8211; a productive and creative perspective.  <img src='http://www.juliansanchez.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':o' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Russell</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/18/pareto-ideologies/comment-page-1/#comment-9099</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 06:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3508#comment-9099</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always thought that this exact effort was explicitly necessary, or at least I wrote it out in the strongest terms fifteen years ago.   Part of it is actually a precursor: the assumption that you live or die according to the strength of the &lt;i&gt;other&lt;/i&gt; side&#039;s arguments.  But that has to mean the other side&#039;s arguments in their best possible form, which can mean that you have to &quot;join&quot; the other side, to in effect do their work for them as carefully as possible.  

One reason to do this is that you encounter information you would not encounter otherwise (all points of view &quot;screen&quot; information; there are no &quot;honest&quot; viewpoints to this extent - much less &quot;objective summaries&quot;).  Also, this specific activity serves one of the core functions of rational discourse:  that everyone over time comes closer and closer to meaning the same things by the same words at the same time, so that unnecessary disputes never occur.  

But I&#039;ve thought the most pressing reason to do it is to try to counteract very strong biases, in the first person, that I know I&#039;m prey to and I presume everyone else is just as subject to.  People clump these in different ways, but there&#039;s defense of my current sense of reliability and priorities - which is also making sure that I seem right about these things, and, by hook or by crook, that I seem to have been right all along.  And I&#039;ve thought of a big shadowy bias-angle as one toward assuming that the things that I am not and have not been &lt;i&gt;interested in&lt;/i&gt; are &lt;i&gt;genuinely&lt;/i&gt; not interesting and &lt;i&gt;deserve&lt;/i&gt; that little interest&lt;/i&gt;.  

This interacts with the practical consideration that the easiest model that I can make of a noncongruent construction with my own accepted mental building blocks, in order to account for it, is usually going to be a weak or unsound or nonsensical one.  And idea-communities (which I think of as mutual-admiration societies, exchanging word-counters and validation) encourage this and make it worse.  

You&#039;ve described this here as a tactical good, or a method for improving dialog, but for me it&#039;s a way in which I can try, by policy, to assure myself that I &lt;i&gt;have indeed&lt;/i&gt; thought about, or really looked at, or taken an interest in, an idea when I think I have.  Because, just as the feeling of sureness or of conclusiveness feels the same whether it&#039;s sound or false, the impression that I&#039;ve adequately thought something over tends to happen &lt;i&gt;no matter what I&#039;ve done.&lt;/i&gt;  I have to make myself &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; something specific that&#039;s, at least slightly more, really taking a careful interest.  

Otherwise... well, the history of my different intellectual periods contains a fair number of embarrassing examples.  And people in general supply plenty.  Like, I&#039;ve talked to a few progressive types, with whom I am often not out of sympathy, who have come to think and say, as a complete take, that market-based arguments, whenever brought up, are merely the propaganda of the monied big interests and do not even need to be looked at.  An explicit policy of engaging with the best form of &quot;their&quot; argument, as a background sense of what to do, can lead one to end up having gone and found at least a general notion of why Milton Friedman would have said such and such.  Lack-of-interest blind spots would be as easy to find among people of any stripe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always thought that this exact effort was explicitly necessary, or at least I wrote it out in the strongest terms fifteen years ago.   Part of it is actually a precursor: the assumption that you live or die according to the strength of the <i>other</i> side&#8217;s arguments.  But that has to mean the other side&#8217;s arguments in their best possible form, which can mean that you have to &#8220;join&#8221; the other side, to in effect do their work for them as carefully as possible.  </p>
<p>One reason to do this is that you encounter information you would not encounter otherwise (all points of view &#8220;screen&#8221; information; there are no &#8220;honest&#8221; viewpoints to this extent &#8211; much less &#8220;objective summaries&#8221;).  Also, this specific activity serves one of the core functions of rational discourse:  that everyone over time comes closer and closer to meaning the same things by the same words at the same time, so that unnecessary disputes never occur.  </p>
<p>But I&#8217;ve thought the most pressing reason to do it is to try to counteract very strong biases, in the first person, that I know I&#8217;m prey to and I presume everyone else is just as subject to.  People clump these in different ways, but there&#8217;s defense of my current sense of reliability and priorities &#8211; which is also making sure that I seem right about these things, and, by hook or by crook, that I seem to have been right all along.  And I&#8217;ve thought of a big shadowy bias-angle as one toward assuming that the things that I am not and have not been <i>interested in</i> are <i>genuinely</i> not interesting and <i>deserve</i> that little interest.  </p>
<p>This interacts with the practical consideration that the easiest model that I can make of a noncongruent construction with my own accepted mental building blocks, in order to account for it, is usually going to be a weak or unsound or nonsensical one.  And idea-communities (which I think of as mutual-admiration societies, exchanging word-counters and validation) encourage this and make it worse.  </p>
<p>You&#8217;ve described this here as a tactical good, or a method for improving dialog, but for me it&#8217;s a way in which I can try, by policy, to assure myself that I <i>have indeed</i> thought about, or really looked at, or taken an interest in, an idea when I think I have.  Because, just as the feeling of sureness or of conclusiveness feels the same whether it&#8217;s sound or false, the impression that I&#8217;ve adequately thought something over tends to happen <i>no matter what I&#8217;ve done.</i>  I have to make myself <i>do</i> something specific that&#8217;s, at least slightly more, really taking a careful interest.  </p>
<p>Otherwise&#8230; well, the history of my different intellectual periods contains a fair number of embarrassing examples.  And people in general supply plenty.  Like, I&#8217;ve talked to a few progressive types, with whom I am often not out of sympathy, who have come to think and say, as a complete take, that market-based arguments, whenever brought up, are merely the propaganda of the monied big interests and do not even need to be looked at.  An explicit policy of engaging with the best form of &#8220;their&#8221; argument, as a background sense of what to do, can lead one to end up having gone and found at least a general notion of why Milton Friedman would have said such and such.  Lack-of-interest blind spots would be as easy to find among people of any stripe.</p>
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