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	<title>Comments on: Two Kinds of Innovation</title>
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	<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/</link>
	<description>Just another geek in the geek kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Stones Cry Out - If they keep silent&#8230; &#187; Things Heard: e81v2</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/comment-page-1/#comment-8946</link>
		<dc:creator>Stones Cry Out - If they keep silent&#8230; &#187; Things Heard: e81v2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3523#comment-8946</guid>
		<description>[...] An interesting post on innovation. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] An interesting post on innovation. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/comment-page-1/#comment-8944</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3523#comment-8944</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I also thought that even if an idea is obvious, it won’t be implemented until someone realizes that they have a need for it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Dunno if it was all that obvious, but Les Paul said he didn&#039;t set out to be a grand innovator -- he just wanted and needed an electrified guitar to make a certain kind of music, and there wasn&#039;t anything around that satisfied the need.  So he set about to fill his own need.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I also thought that even if an idea is obvious, it won’t be implemented until someone realizes that they have a need for it.</p></blockquote>
<p>Dunno if it was all that obvious, but Les Paul said he didn&#8217;t set out to be a grand innovator &#8212; he just wanted and needed an electrified guitar to make a certain kind of music, and there wasn&#8217;t anything around that satisfied the need.  So he set about to fill his own need.</p>
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		<title>By: LP</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/comment-page-1/#comment-8942</link>
		<dc:creator>LP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 04:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3523#comment-8942</guid>
		<description>Julian-

Looks like the Supreme Court agrees with your &#039;number of smart people who&#039;ve unsuccessfully banged their heads on this problem&#039; criterion (Graham, KSR). I&#039;m fascinated by the EU&#039;s &#039;would/could&#039; method of determining obviousness, as well as by the UK&#039;s warning to consider the perspective of a &#039;skilled but unimaginative&#039; person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julian-</p>
<p>Looks like the Supreme Court agrees with your &#8216;number of smart people who&#8217;ve unsuccessfully banged their heads on this problem&#8217; criterion (Graham, KSR). I&#8217;m fascinated by the EU&#8217;s &#8216;would/could&#8217; method of determining obviousness, as well as by the UK&#8217;s warning to consider the perspective of a &#8216;skilled but unimaginative&#8217; person.</p>
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		<title>By: southpaw</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/comment-page-1/#comment-8941</link>
		<dc:creator>southpaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 02:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3523#comment-8941</guid>
		<description>I think what we might be butting up against is the desire to make innovation an act of personal commission when invention so often involves elements of chance and serendipity and path dependency.  The heroic conception we want to attach to the innovator doesn&#039;t always fit.  

There are tens of thousands of brilliant biological researchers out there, but only Fleming had the wit to cause penicillium notatum to float in the window.

That&#039;s not to say the state shouldn&#039;t incentivize people to develop the skills that could allow serendipity to reward them.  It&#039;s just that the whole scheme bears an uncomfortable similarity to the state lotto much of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what we might be butting up against is the desire to make innovation an act of personal commission when invention so often involves elements of chance and serendipity and path dependency.  The heroic conception we want to attach to the innovator doesn&#8217;t always fit.  </p>
<p>There are tens of thousands of brilliant biological researchers out there, but only Fleming had the wit to cause penicillium notatum to float in the window.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not to say the state shouldn&#8217;t incentivize people to develop the skills that could allow serendipity to reward them.  It&#8217;s just that the whole scheme bears an uncomfortable similarity to the state lotto much of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/comment-page-1/#comment-8939</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 22:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3523#comment-8939</guid>
		<description>LP-
  Yes, well,  the &quot;could&quot; there was something of a deliberate hedge.  But I don&#039;t know that the kind of case you mention presents special difficulty: If the innovation is a matter of exhausting a huge search space, maybe even in a pretty mechanical manner, surely you want to grant the protection and provide incentive to do the search. But that seems like it&#039;s probably just a question of being sure to index obviousness to the search space rather than serving up the result and asking whether it&#039;s obvious that it has the desired properties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LP-<br />
  Yes, well,  the &#8220;could&#8221; there was something of a deliberate hedge.  But I don&#8217;t know that the kind of case you mention presents special difficulty: If the innovation is a matter of exhausting a huge search space, maybe even in a pretty mechanical manner, surely you want to grant the protection and provide incentive to do the search. But that seems like it&#8217;s probably just a question of being sure to index obviousness to the search space rather than serving up the result and asking whether it&#8217;s obvious that it has the desired properties.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/comment-page-1/#comment-8938</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 22:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3523#comment-8938</guid>
		<description>Hmm, while certainly it&#039;s true that the implicit social contract is an important part of understanding the &quot;obviousness&quot; criterion, I want to question the suggestion that entrepreneurial innovation is generally &quot;obvious.&quot;   In some cases, of course, it will necessarily be—you can market a new alloy while keeping the production process secret, but you can hardly keep secret the fact that you&#039;re marketing it. In other cases, though, the reason you don&#039;t want to set up the quid-pro-quo is that it&#039;s actually the very opposite of obvious: Maybe someone finally runs a successful café in a location where others had failed. Maybe it&#039;s not one innovation, but a process of a hundred little changes, made continuously, that keeps it appealing to the local community. You can&#039;t have the contract there because, in fact, the innovation is really built into the person&#039;s particular skills and business sense and can&#039;t easily be taught to others or turned into a formula. (In those cases, of course, protection is clearly not necessary either, and I doubt many patent claims are occasioned by innovation of this sort.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, while certainly it&#8217;s true that the implicit social contract is an important part of understanding the &#8220;obviousness&#8221; criterion, I want to question the suggestion that entrepreneurial innovation is generally &#8220;obvious.&#8221;   In some cases, of course, it will necessarily be—you can market a new alloy while keeping the production process secret, but you can hardly keep secret the fact that you&#8217;re marketing it. In other cases, though, the reason you don&#8217;t want to set up the quid-pro-quo is that it&#8217;s actually the very opposite of obvious: Maybe someone finally runs a successful café in a location where others had failed. Maybe it&#8217;s not one innovation, but a process of a hundred little changes, made continuously, that keeps it appealing to the local community. You can&#8217;t have the contract there because, in fact, the innovation is really built into the person&#8217;s particular skills and business sense and can&#8217;t easily be taught to others or turned into a formula. (In those cases, of course, protection is clearly not necessary either, and I doubt many patent claims are occasioned by innovation of this sort.)</p>
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		<title>By: LP</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/comment-page-1/#comment-8937</link>
		<dc:creator>LP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3523#comment-8937</guid>
		<description>JustinOpinion: Good point. Many people are mistakenly debating patents vs. public domain, when the real alternatives are patent vs. trade secret (non-optimal, especially for new drugs and other dangerous things).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JustinOpinion: Good point. Many people are mistakenly debating patents vs. public domain, when the real alternatives are patent vs. trade secret (non-optimal, especially for new drugs and other dangerous things).</p>
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		<title>By: LP</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/comment-page-1/#comment-8936</link>
		<dc:creator>LP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3523#comment-8936</guid>
		<description>&quot;A purely technical innovation could involve taking a very clear given problem or goal that everyone understands well enough—we want faster computers and thinner screens, and a cure for cancer would be nice while you’re at it—and then coming up with a clever means to that end.&quot;

I don&#039;t disagree with the categories you&#039;ve distinguished here, but would like to observe that the above is untrue. An awful lot of really unexpected invention happens at the basic research level, which is less solution-oriented or goal-oriented than “anomaly-oriented” – here is an odd fact that doesn’t seem to fit into what we’d predict would happen, so let’s start pulling at it, and pulling and pulling, et voila: a cure for cancer. Or whatever. Obviousness can get tricky here – some particular insight might be completely novel, because no one has ever studied that particular gene pathway, enzyme interaction, etc., but still look completely obvious in retrospect, aside from the fact that no one ever looked there before. In other words, the number of smart people banging their heads against a fundamental scientific problem is not necessarily correlated with the lack of obviousness of the solution, once found.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A purely technical innovation could involve taking a very clear given problem or goal that everyone understands well enough—we want faster computers and thinner screens, and a cure for cancer would be nice while you’re at it—and then coming up with a clever means to that end.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t disagree with the categories you&#8217;ve distinguished here, but would like to observe that the above is untrue. An awful lot of really unexpected invention happens at the basic research level, which is less solution-oriented or goal-oriented than “anomaly-oriented” – here is an odd fact that doesn’t seem to fit into what we’d predict would happen, so let’s start pulling at it, and pulling and pulling, et voila: a cure for cancer. Or whatever. Obviousness can get tricky here – some particular insight might be completely novel, because no one has ever studied that particular gene pathway, enzyme interaction, etc., but still look completely obvious in retrospect, aside from the fact that no one ever looked there before. In other words, the number of smart people banging their heads against a fundamental scientific problem is not necessarily correlated with the lack of obviousness of the solution, once found.</p>
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		<title>By: JustinOpinion</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/comment-page-1/#comment-8935</link>
		<dc:creator>JustinOpinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3523#comment-8935</guid>
		<description>There is something you&#039;re leaving out from your (otherwise insightful) analysis. A patent is in some sense a deal between the public and the inventor: &quot;We&#039;ll grant you a short-term monopoly (with the force of government behind it), if in return you tell us all the gory details of your invention.&quot; The idea is that the public is getting something out of the patent beyond just giving businesses an &quot;incentive&quot; to produce things. I&#039;m not sure about the extent to which this kind of reasoning, in practice, applies to patent applications. But I submit that it was, and should remain, a key justification for the social burden of the patent system.

In this context, the &quot;obviousness&quot; criteria is derived from the social contract. Only if the patent application provides useful information to the public (which would otherwise have been lost to a corporate trade-secrets vault) is it really a good &#039;deal&#039; for the public. A patent for a generic chip-clip, for instance, doesn&#039;t disclose anything that someone else couldn&#039;t have easily figured out without the patent. It&#039;s obvious. The details of a manufacturing process to make an alloy that has superior strength and flexure properties (and could be used as a spring in a chip-clip) is very valuable to the public. In exchange for granting a monopoly on the production of that alloy, the public (and other companies) get to see the details and (eventually) build upon the discoveries.

It seems to me that many &#039;bad patents&#039; could be avoided if this social contract were kept in mind (vagueness and obviousness are immediate disqualifies). Returning to your technological vs. entrepreneurial divide, it&#039;s clear that disclosing details of a technology is valuable. Whereas an entrepreneurial innovation is, as you point out, totally obvious--the value to society is only in the doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is something you&#8217;re leaving out from your (otherwise insightful) analysis. A patent is in some sense a deal between the public and the inventor: &#8220;We&#8217;ll grant you a short-term monopoly (with the force of government behind it), if in return you tell us all the gory details of your invention.&#8221; The idea is that the public is getting something out of the patent beyond just giving businesses an &#8220;incentive&#8221; to produce things. I&#8217;m not sure about the extent to which this kind of reasoning, in practice, applies to patent applications. But I submit that it was, and should remain, a key justification for the social burden of the patent system.</p>
<p>In this context, the &#8220;obviousness&#8221; criteria is derived from the social contract. Only if the patent application provides useful information to the public (which would otherwise have been lost to a corporate trade-secrets vault) is it really a good &#8216;deal&#8217; for the public. A patent for a generic chip-clip, for instance, doesn&#8217;t disclose anything that someone else couldn&#8217;t have easily figured out without the patent. It&#8217;s obvious. The details of a manufacturing process to make an alloy that has superior strength and flexure properties (and could be used as a spring in a chip-clip) is very valuable to the public. In exchange for granting a monopoly on the production of that alloy, the public (and other companies) get to see the details and (eventually) build upon the discoveries.</p>
<p>It seems to me that many &#8216;bad patents&#8217; could be avoided if this social contract were kept in mind (vagueness and obviousness are immediate disqualifies). Returning to your technological vs. entrepreneurial divide, it&#8217;s clear that disclosing details of a technology is valuable. Whereas an entrepreneurial innovation is, as you point out, totally obvious&#8211;the value to society is only in the doing.</p>
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		<title>By: RickRussellTX</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/08/17/two-kinds-of-innovation/comment-page-1/#comment-8934</link>
		<dc:creator>RickRussellTX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=3523#comment-8934</guid>
		<description>Once again, you&#039;ve put into words a concept that&#039;s been banging around in my head for some time. If only I had applied for a patent!

Seriously, there seems to be considerable scholarship devoted to &quot;developing innovation&quot; -- in particular, methods to hothouse and grow the kind of entrepreneurial service innovation that you discuss and keep it within the organization.

When I was getting my MBA, I tried to approach the parallel question: what is required to foster *technological* (scientific, engineering, medical) innovation? In fact, there seems to be less scholarship devoted to this issue, I think because it&#039;s such a thorny problem. Clearly there is money, and facilities, and getting the best minds, and... precious little detail on how to fit them together, except to throw them in a lab and see what happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, you&#8217;ve put into words a concept that&#8217;s been banging around in my head for some time. If only I had applied for a patent!</p>
<p>Seriously, there seems to be considerable scholarship devoted to &#8220;developing innovation&#8221; &#8212; in particular, methods to hothouse and grow the kind of entrepreneurial service innovation that you discuss and keep it within the organization.</p>
<p>When I was getting my MBA, I tried to approach the parallel question: what is required to foster *technological* (scientific, engineering, medical) innovation? In fact, there seems to be less scholarship devoted to this issue, I think because it&#8217;s such a thorny problem. Clearly there is money, and facilities, and getting the best minds, and&#8230; precious little detail on how to fit them together, except to throw them in a lab and see what happens.</p>
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