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	<title>Comments on: Shorter Mona Charen</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/</link>
	<description>Just another geek in the geek kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Glen</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/comment-page-1/#comment-6712</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2863#comment-6712</guid>
		<description>WC, I think Julian would happily advocate getting gov&#039;t out of the marriage business.  Indeed, I&#039;m pretty sure I&#039;ve heard him do so.  But that&#039;s probably off the table politically, so Julian is sensibly engaging in the second-best debate. 

(When libertarians won&#039;t engage in second-best debates, they are called dogmatic.  When they do engage in second-best debates, they are accused of selling out their principles.  Damned if you do, damned if you don&#039;t.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WC, I think Julian would happily advocate getting gov&#8217;t out of the marriage business.  Indeed, I&#8217;m pretty sure I&#8217;ve heard him do so.  But that&#8217;s probably off the table politically, so Julian is sensibly engaging in the second-best debate. </p>
<p>(When libertarians won&#8217;t engage in second-best debates, they are called dogmatic.  When they do engage in second-best debates, they are accused of selling out their principles.  Damned if you do, damned if you don&#8217;t.)</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/comment-page-1/#comment-6711</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2863#comment-6711</guid>
		<description>Speaking of cliched and banal...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of cliched and banal&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Watertight Compartment</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/comment-page-1/#comment-6703</link>
		<dc:creator>Watertight Compartment</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 06:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2863#comment-6703</guid>
		<description>To go waaaay back , Sanchez labels Charen&#039;s underlying argument (the absence of a principled argument to permit gay marriage but continue proscribing polygamy) as &quot;cliche&quot; and &quot;banal&quot;. 

No argument against its veracity, then. I guess as a non-hipster, I don&#039;t find aesthetic conisderations as compelling as you do, Sanchez. 

 Of course, as a libertarian, Sanchez&#039;s argument should be that the gov&#039;t has no place in the marriage game to begin with. But that argument wouldn&#039;t get him many DC cocktail party invites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To go waaaay back , Sanchez labels Charen&#8217;s underlying argument (the absence of a principled argument to permit gay marriage but continue proscribing polygamy) as &#8220;cliche&#8221; and &#8220;banal&#8221;. </p>
<p>No argument against its veracity, then. I guess as a non-hipster, I don&#8217;t find aesthetic conisderations as compelling as you do, Sanchez. </p>
<p> Of course, as a libertarian, Sanchez&#8217;s argument should be that the gov&#8217;t has no place in the marriage game to begin with. But that argument wouldn&#8217;t get him many DC cocktail party invites.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/comment-page-1/#comment-6701</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 04:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2863#comment-6701</guid>
		<description>Glen-
   Well, you know I don&#039;t have any problem with allowing polyamorous marriages, but there are also valid reasons why the particular set of legal rules constituting marriage are not easily extended to an indefinite number of parties. So I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a case of naked, indefensible discrimination in anything like the same way.  The &quot;if we permit A, we&#039;re logically required to permit B&quot; argument is just wrong on its face.

That said, I wasn&#039;t really taking issue with that whole thing -- that&#039;s an old argument.  I was making fun of Charen&#039;s apparent belief that bisexuals are, per se, incapable of monogamy.  Which isn&#039;t just wrong on its face, it&#039;s so preposterously, obviously wrong that it just  drives home that queer folks are like some sort of exotic species to Charen, about whom she has to spout inane theories in lieu of having observed any in the wild.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glen-<br />
   Well, you know I don&#8217;t have any problem with allowing polyamorous marriages, but there are also valid reasons why the particular set of legal rules constituting marriage are not easily extended to an indefinite number of parties. So I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a case of naked, indefensible discrimination in anything like the same way.  The &#8220;if we permit A, we&#8217;re logically required to permit B&#8221; argument is just wrong on its face.</p>
<p>That said, I wasn&#8217;t really taking issue with that whole thing &#8212; that&#8217;s an old argument.  I was making fun of Charen&#8217;s apparent belief that bisexuals are, per se, incapable of monogamy.  Which isn&#8217;t just wrong on its face, it&#8217;s so preposterously, obviously wrong that it just  drives home that queer folks are like some sort of exotic species to Charen, about whom she has to spout inane theories in lieu of having observed any in the wild.</p>
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		<title>By: Glen</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/comment-page-1/#comment-6700</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 03:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2863#comment-6700</guid>
		<description>Okay, Charen&#039;s article has a lot of dumb-assed-ness in it.  But there is  at least the kernel of a valid argument.  

There are at least some people -- including some but not all bisexuals -- who don&#039;t feel sexually fulfilled when involved with just one person.  We call these people polyamorous, and most of us liberal-minded folks recognize their existence when we&#039;re not having a political conversation.  (Listen to a few episodes of Dan Savage&#039;s podcast, for instance.)  Moreover, many of our arguments in favor of gay marriage have implications far beyond the specific issue.  When we talk about freedom of association, for instance, that implies the right of people to form polyamorous relationships.

I think the appropriate response to the slippery slope argument here is to concede the point.  Yes, this is a slippery slope -- a slope toward freedom, which we should jump on with a toboggan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, Charen&#8217;s article has a lot of dumb-assed-ness in it.  But there is  at least the kernel of a valid argument.  </p>
<p>There are at least some people &#8212; including some but not all bisexuals &#8212; who don&#8217;t feel sexually fulfilled when involved with just one person.  We call these people polyamorous, and most of us liberal-minded folks recognize their existence when we&#8217;re not having a political conversation.  (Listen to a few episodes of Dan Savage&#8217;s podcast, for instance.)  Moreover, many of our arguments in favor of gay marriage have implications far beyond the specific issue.  When we talk about freedom of association, for instance, that implies the right of people to form polyamorous relationships.</p>
<p>I think the appropriate response to the slippery slope argument here is to concede the point.  Yes, this is a slippery slope &#8212; a slope toward freedom, which we should jump on with a toboggan.</p>
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		<title>By: A Socrates hater</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/comment-page-1/#comment-6699</link>
		<dc:creator>A Socrates hater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2863#comment-6699</guid>
		<description>&quot;hermetically sealed receptacle&quot; -&gt; All that babbling doesn&#039;t blur the fact that people don&#039;t marry to fulfill sexual needs, and that marriage, even a legally monogamical one, doesn&#039;t necessarily constrain a party&#039;s sexual options to her spouse. If the fulfillment and expression of sexual desires is the only argument for same-sex marriage -- I myself wouldn&#039;t even say it is one of them -- what feeble grounds would its advocates be on.... If this is correct, then there&#039;s no case for an analogy between same-sex marriages and polygamical bisexual marriages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;hermetically sealed receptacle&#8221; -&gt; All that babbling doesn&#8217;t blur the fact that people don&#8217;t marry to fulfill sexual needs, and that marriage, even a legally monogamical one, doesn&#8217;t necessarily constrain a party&#8217;s sexual options to her spouse. If the fulfillment and expression of sexual desires is the only argument for same-sex marriage &#8212; I myself wouldn&#8217;t even say it is one of them &#8212; what feeble grounds would its advocates be on&#8230;. If this is correct, then there&#8217;s no case for an analogy between same-sex marriages and polygamical bisexual marriages.</p>
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		<title>By: Psyche</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/comment-page-1/#comment-6696</link>
		<dc:creator>Psyche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 05:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2863#comment-6696</guid>
		<description>For the enlightenment and edification of the closed container crowd, here&#039;s what an actual, factual bisexual thinks about your line of reasoning: you&#039;re blithering idiots.

Just because I&#039;m bisexual doesn&#039;t mean I don&#039;t understand, and potentially want to enjoy, the benefits of a committed, monogamous relationship. And if I were to settle down with a nice girl (or boy) and stop sleeping around, I wouldn&#039;t stop being bisexual. I&#039;d still be attracted to members of both sexes, I&#039;d just only be acting on that attraction with one particular individual. 

My situation as regards marriage would be quite different from that of a gay man or woman who could only marry a member of the opposite sex. Sure, I would have chosen not to act on one facet of my sexual identity, but I would as a result be able to be in an exclusive, loving, sexual, and legally-recognized relationship (assuming I settle down with a man and/or move to Massachusetts), whereas a gay person would have to choose between the sexual and the legally recognized bits in most states.

Look, sleeping with men and sleeping with women are different experiences, but for me ultimately they&#039;re really more similar than not. Men and women aren&#039;t interchangeable, but then people generally aren&#039;t really interchangeable, and certainly aren&#039;t in the sort of relationships that lead to marriage. Sleeping with any one person - at least if you&#039;re doing it right - is a unique experience you couldn&#039;t recreate with any other partner because they&#039;re a unique individual. Monogamy is about valuing one unique person above all others, to the point that you&#039;re willing to forego all other types of sexual experience that you might have with other partners, and that&#039;s true whether you&#039;re straight, gay or bisexual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the enlightenment and edification of the closed container crowd, here&#8217;s what an actual, factual bisexual thinks about your line of reasoning: you&#8217;re blithering idiots.</p>
<p>Just because I&#8217;m bisexual doesn&#8217;t mean I don&#8217;t understand, and potentially want to enjoy, the benefits of a committed, monogamous relationship. And if I were to settle down with a nice girl (or boy) and stop sleeping around, I wouldn&#8217;t stop being bisexual. I&#8217;d still be attracted to members of both sexes, I&#8217;d just only be acting on that attraction with one particular individual. </p>
<p>My situation as regards marriage would be quite different from that of a gay man or woman who could only marry a member of the opposite sex. Sure, I would have chosen not to act on one facet of my sexual identity, but I would as a result be able to be in an exclusive, loving, sexual, and legally-recognized relationship (assuming I settle down with a man and/or move to Massachusetts), whereas a gay person would have to choose between the sexual and the legally recognized bits in most states.</p>
<p>Look, sleeping with men and sleeping with women are different experiences, but for me ultimately they&#8217;re really more similar than not. Men and women aren&#8217;t interchangeable, but then people generally aren&#8217;t really interchangeable, and certainly aren&#8217;t in the sort of relationships that lead to marriage. Sleeping with any one person &#8211; at least if you&#8217;re doing it right &#8211; is a unique experience you couldn&#8217;t recreate with any other partner because they&#8217;re a unique individual. Monogamy is about valuing one unique person above all others, to the point that you&#8217;re willing to forego all other types of sexual experience that you might have with other partners, and that&#8217;s true whether you&#8217;re straight, gay or bisexual.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/comment-page-1/#comment-6694</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 04:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2863#comment-6694</guid>
		<description>Yes, well, I&#039;ll leave it to you to explain to all the monogamous bisexuals that they&#039;re doing it wrong. You&#039;d better get started; there are rather a lot of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, well, I&#8217;ll leave it to you to explain to all the monogamous bisexuals that they&#8217;re doing it wrong. You&#8217;d better get started; there are rather a lot of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Elson</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/comment-page-1/#comment-6693</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Elson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 03:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2863#comment-6693</guid>
		<description>If you think that there should be some institutional accomodation for polygamous relationships, then fine, but it could not use the same legal framework as marriage as it currently exists.

Let&#039;s say Adam marries Elizabeth and Kristen. Adam writes a book, then kicks the bucket. A filmmaker wants to adapt the book to the screen. Elizabeth thinks it&#039;s a nifty idea. Kristen thinks it wouldn&#039;t be. Legally, who is in the right? The law says that the spouse gets control over copyrights. It doesn&#039;t specify [i]which[/i] spouse, because under marriage, any person can only have one spouse. Marriage law is based on the assumption that anyone has one spouse (or zero). 

Why do I bother, though? You&#039;ll just say I&#039;m making an arbitrary distinction and discriminating against bisexuals who believe that their sexuality means that marriage is discriminatory unless it allows bisexuals a husband and a wife each (a group of bisexuals of whose existence I&#039;ve seen no evidence -- at least, no more evidence than that of straights and gays who think they should be able marry polygamously, but regardless...).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you think that there should be some institutional accomodation for polygamous relationships, then fine, but it could not use the same legal framework as marriage as it currently exists.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say Adam marries Elizabeth and Kristen. Adam writes a book, then kicks the bucket. A filmmaker wants to adapt the book to the screen. Elizabeth thinks it&#8217;s a nifty idea. Kristen thinks it wouldn&#8217;t be. Legally, who is in the right? The law says that the spouse gets control over copyrights. It doesn&#8217;t specify [i]which[/i] spouse, because under marriage, any person can only have one spouse. Marriage law is based on the assumption that anyone has one spouse (or zero). </p>
<p>Why do I bother, though? You&#8217;ll just say I&#8217;m making an arbitrary distinction and discriminating against bisexuals who believe that their sexuality means that marriage is discriminatory unless it allows bisexuals a husband and a wife each (a group of bisexuals of whose existence I&#8217;ve seen no evidence &#8212; at least, no more evidence than that of straights and gays who think they should be able marry polygamously, but regardless&#8230;).</p>
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		<title>By: hermetically sealed receptacle</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/26/shorter-mona-charen/comment-page-1/#comment-6692</link>
		<dc:creator>hermetically sealed receptacle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 02:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2863#comment-6692</guid>
		<description>Except that the aspect of sexuality denied to bisexuals -- namely, one side of the bisexuality coin -- is inherent to one&#039;s bisexuality. Being monogamous would mean being forced to choose one facet of my bisexuality, making me effectively mono-, rather than bisexual. The artificial distinction you seem so keen to draw is without merit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except that the aspect of sexuality denied to bisexuals &#8212; namely, one side of the bisexuality coin &#8212; is inherent to one&#8217;s bisexuality. Being monogamous would mean being forced to choose one facet of my bisexuality, making me effectively mono-, rather than bisexual. The artificial distinction you seem so keen to draw is without merit.</p>
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