<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: But Dude, They&#8217;re WRONG</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/</link>
	<description>Just another geek in the geek kingdom</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 05:38:37 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-6736</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 01:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2857#comment-6736</guid>
		<description>&quot;Given that blacks and latinos supported Prop 8 by a healthy margin and taking into account their increasing proportion of the population, the demographic trends in the United States militate in favour of less indulgence of homosexuality, not more.&quot;


Ta-Nehisi Coates (at The Atlantic) took that on:

http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/prop_8_and_blaming_the_blacks.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Given that blacks and latinos supported Prop 8 by a healthy margin and taking into account their increasing proportion of the population, the demographic trends in the United States militate in favour of less indulgence of homosexuality, not more.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ta-Nehisi Coates (at The Atlantic) took that on:</p>
<p><a href="http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/prop_8_and_blaming_the_blacks.php" rel="nofollow">http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/prop_8_and_blaming_the_blacks.php</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stuhlmann</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-6681</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuhlmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2857#comment-6681</guid>
		<description>&quot;No one should have to beg for their rights.  Period.  And the oppressor is always to blame for the oppression they commit.&quot;

No, you do not have to beg for your rights, but some times you do have to fight for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;No one should have to beg for their rights.  Period.  And the oppressor is always to blame for the oppression they commit.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, you do not have to beg for your rights, but some times you do have to fight for them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Watertight Compartment</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-6677</link>
		<dc:creator>Watertight Compartment</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2857#comment-6677</guid>
		<description>Dave2,

  The latter. I am on my fifteenth draft at the moment, but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s sufficiently abject yet.

  In all earnest, I think that is a plausible reading. I&#039;m not saying he would twitch a finger in order to bring the blessed day about, but his contempt for those &quot;immoral&quot; &quot;homophobes&quot; standing in the way of the coming pan-sexual Utopia is palpable and seemingly vast. 

 Likely a case of one death being a tragedy but a million deaths a policy opportunity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave2,</p>
<p>  The latter. I am on my fifteenth draft at the moment, but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s sufficiently abject yet.</p>
<p>  In all earnest, I think that is a plausible reading. I&#8217;m not saying he would twitch a finger in order to bring the blessed day about, but his contempt for those &#8220;immoral&#8221; &#8220;homophobes&#8221; standing in the way of the coming pan-sexual Utopia is palpable and seemingly vast. </p>
<p> Likely a case of one death being a tragedy but a million deaths a policy opportunity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave2</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-6673</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 04:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2857#comment-6673</guid>
		<description>Watertight Compartment, do you really think that a reasonable reading of Julian&#039;s post leads to the conclusion that he &quot;long[s] for the deaths of millions of [his] fellow citizens&quot;? Or are you in the middle of writing an apology for your unfair allegation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Watertight Compartment, do you really think that a reasonable reading of Julian&#8217;s post leads to the conclusion that he &#8220;long[s] for the deaths of millions of [his] fellow citizens&#8221;? Or are you in the middle of writing an apology for your unfair allegation?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Watertight Compartment</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-6658</link>
		<dc:creator>Watertight Compartment</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 13:23:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2857#comment-6658</guid>
		<description>&quot;Given demographic trends, we can probably just wait for them to die out&quot;

 Notwithstanding the monstrousness of longing for the deaths of millions of one&#039;s fellow citizens, this statement is wrongheaded. 

 Given that blacks and latinos supported Prop 8 by a healthy margin and taking into account their increasing proportion of the population,  the demographic trends in the United States militate in favour of less indulgence of homosexuality, not more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Given demographic trends, we can probably just wait for them to die out&#8221;</p>
<p> Notwithstanding the monstrousness of longing for the deaths of millions of one&#8217;s fellow citizens, this statement is wrongheaded. </p>
<p> Given that blacks and latinos supported Prop 8 by a healthy margin and taking into account their increasing proportion of the population,  the demographic trends in the United States militate in favour of less indulgence of homosexuality, not more.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Uncommon Priors &#187; Commenting elsewhere</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-6647</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncommon Priors &#187; Commenting elsewhere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 02:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2857#comment-6647</guid>
		<description>[...] 8, and the way in which we ought to deal with the wrongness of our victorious opponents. After my comments, he clarifies some. On reflection, I think he&#8217;s ultimately right: blame, too, is contextual: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 8, and the way in which we ought to deal with the wrongness of our victorious opponents. After my comments, he clarifies some. On reflection, I think he&#8217;s ultimately right: blame, too, is contextual: [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Julian Elson</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-6645</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Elson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2857#comment-6645</guid>
		<description>Only loosely related, but this reminds me of the scene in Milk where Franco and Penn go to the older, richer gay rights activists. The older gay rights activists (with a bit of condescension, admittedly) explain their incremental strategy of supporting pro-gay straight candidates, and don&#039;t immediately support Milk.

I&#039;m not saying that the older gay rights activists were right.  However, if they were wrong, Milk could have made an argument that increasing visibility was, in the long-run, the best route to acceptance. He could have made some argument about why he was more viable as a candidate than they perceived and that having gay, and not merely pro-gay, politicians in office was more critical than he perceived. Ultimately, though, Milk and Smith just storm out of the place with an indignantly self-righteous flourish.

I&#039;m not sure whether this was intended to show Milk as being a bold man of principle, or as a flawed, temperamental man whose political instincts were far from perfect. I suppose I felt like the former was intended, and I disagreed with the message in that case. In the latter case, though -- Milk was an imperfect human being and an imperfect politician and activist, yet he deserved to be able to run for office, speak out, and not get shot every bit as much as all of the straights who are imperfect as politicians, activists, and human beings -- then I suppose it worked. Maybe either interpretation works.

I suppose this is all a bit tangential, but I suppose the point is that right does not make might, and self-righteousness makes neither. (Although, as in the case of Cara and Milk, self-righteousness doesn&#039;t make wrong, either -- at least in broad terms of principle.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only loosely related, but this reminds me of the scene in Milk where Franco and Penn go to the older, richer gay rights activists. The older gay rights activists (with a bit of condescension, admittedly) explain their incremental strategy of supporting pro-gay straight candidates, and don&#8217;t immediately support Milk.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that the older gay rights activists were right.  However, if they were wrong, Milk could have made an argument that increasing visibility was, in the long-run, the best route to acceptance. He could have made some argument about why he was more viable as a candidate than they perceived and that having gay, and not merely pro-gay, politicians in office was more critical than he perceived. Ultimately, though, Milk and Smith just storm out of the place with an indignantly self-righteous flourish.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure whether this was intended to show Milk as being a bold man of principle, or as a flawed, temperamental man whose political instincts were far from perfect. I suppose I felt like the former was intended, and I disagreed with the message in that case. In the latter case, though &#8212; Milk was an imperfect human being and an imperfect politician and activist, yet he deserved to be able to run for office, speak out, and not get shot every bit as much as all of the straights who are imperfect as politicians, activists, and human beings &#8212; then I suppose it worked. Maybe either interpretation works.</p>
<p>I suppose this is all a bit tangential, but I suppose the point is that right does not make might, and self-righteousness makes neither. (Although, as in the case of Cara and Milk, self-righteousness doesn&#8217;t make wrong, either &#8212; at least in broad terms of principle.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Julian Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-6643</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2857#comment-6643</guid>
		<description>Well, right, this is why I think context matters. If a bunch of military commanders are talking strategy, it&#039;s legitimate to say: &quot;Hey, YOU&#039;RE TO BLAME for failing to hold that position.&quot;  And it&#039;s no defense for the person being blamed to say: &quot;Well, it&#039;s really the fault of the opposing army waging this unjust war.&quot; If you&#039;re trying to win over unaligned powers, of course, you focus on the injustice of the aggression.  In the pages of Rolling Stone, I think we&#039;re a lot closer to the first sort of context than the second. Assuming background agreement within the relevant community about which side is in the right, fuming about the Mormons is not useful, whereas asking &quot;how did we fuck this up?&quot; might be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, right, this is why I think context matters. If a bunch of military commanders are talking strategy, it&#8217;s legitimate to say: &#8220;Hey, YOU&#8217;RE TO BLAME for failing to hold that position.&#8221;  And it&#8217;s no defense for the person being blamed to say: &#8220;Well, it&#8217;s really the fault of the opposing army waging this unjust war.&#8221; If you&#8217;re trying to win over unaligned powers, of course, you focus on the injustice of the aggression.  In the pages of Rolling Stone, I think we&#8217;re a lot closer to the first sort of context than the second. Assuming background agreement within the relevant community about which side is in the right, fuming about the Mormons is not useful, whereas asking &#8220;how did we fuck this up?&#8221; might be.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Gowder</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/12/22/but-dude-theyre-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-6641</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Gowder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2857#comment-6641</guid>
		<description>It depends on what the point of the argument is.  There are two possible points to the statement &quot;gay rights advocates could have campaigned better.&quot;  

1)  &quot;Gay rights advocates, because of their poor campaigning, are rightly blamed for the success of proposition 8.&quot;  

2)  &quot;Gay rights advocates might have succeeded/might succeed in the future with better campaigning.&quot;  

Your argument aptly defends 2), but I think a lot of people want to have 1), and I take it that Cara&#039;s point is that 1) does not follow from 2).  (Consider: &quot;she could have avoided being raped by never leaving the house&quot; for a salient example of how 2) does not license 1).)  The Rolling Stone article reads like the assignment of blame -- of culpability -- of 1), and Cara points that out and objects to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It depends on what the point of the argument is.  There are two possible points to the statement &#8220;gay rights advocates could have campaigned better.&#8221;  </p>
<p>1)  &#8220;Gay rights advocates, because of their poor campaigning, are rightly blamed for the success of proposition 8.&#8221;  </p>
<p>2)  &#8220;Gay rights advocates might have succeeded/might succeed in the future with better campaigning.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Your argument aptly defends 2), but I think a lot of people want to have 1), and I take it that Cara&#8217;s point is that 1) does not follow from 2).  (Consider: &#8220;she could have avoided being raped by never leaving the house&#8221; for a salient example of how 2) does not license 1).)  The Rolling Stone article reads like the assignment of blame &#8212; of culpability &#8212; of 1), and Cara points that out and objects to it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

