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	<title>Comments on: Cats and Dogs, Living Together (MSM-Slagging Edition)</title>
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	<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/06/02/cats-and-dogs-living-together-msm-slagging-edition/</link>
	<description>Just another geek in the geek kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/06/02/cats-and-dogs-living-together-msm-slagging-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-4658</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2428#comment-4658</guid>
		<description>Very perceptive post, Julian.  I htink the broader issue is that there are many within the political landscape right now for whom flag, patriotism and symbolism are all that is left -- their actions have been decidedly unpatriotic -- stealing the 2000 election, leading us into a war on false pretenses, presiding over a corrupt, dishonest and incompetent administration, subverting the bind eye by which the criminal justice  system is supposed to be operated for purely political reasons, outing covert intelleigence agents for political reasons, trashing many different decent people for political reasons, swfit-boating a war hero while giving draft dodgers a free pass, and all other manner of acts and treason -- high crimes and misdemeanors if you will - that seem decidedly anti-American to me.  

So what you do is point to the symbol - the flag, or a flag lapel pin, or a phrase like &quot;God Bless America&quot; -- and you make those symbols sacrosanct, suggesting that words or acts calling those pristeen symbols into question or disrepute -- regardless of what they really signify or are intended to mean -- reflect a lack of loyalty or patriotism or fidelity to the values we cherish &quot;as Americans&quot; as if the symbols empbody some universal values that all Americans hold.  When in fact, while sanctifying those symbols, the cultists who are subordinate theor own actions to those symbols and what they supposedly represent are acting in a way that is an affront to the real values that those symbols are supposed to represent -- liberty, equality, justice, fairness, equity, respect and compassion.  

I guess the media and the GOP both depend on an inattentive and intellectually lazy public to allow discourse at this warped level to continue in this way,  relatively unchallenged.  It makes all the sense in the world that Bush in an anti-intellectual, surrounded by people who accuse anybody who incorporates nuance into their thinking or words of being an &quot;elitist.&quot;   It plays right to the wheelhouse of the inattentive and  intellectually lazy.  Time to stop listening to what they say, and start paying attention to what they do.   And in the case of Wright, and his inflammatory comments, we are not at the point as a society where we can examine his words fairly and without emotion -- too much political gain to be had from attacking them reflexively -- and since the media has abidcated its role as a fourth estate which questions the conventional wisdom as imparted by those in power, in favor of serving their corporate masters, it is unlikely to change anytime soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very perceptive post, Julian.  I htink the broader issue is that there are many within the political landscape right now for whom flag, patriotism and symbolism are all that is left &#8212; their actions have been decidedly unpatriotic &#8212; stealing the 2000 election, leading us into a war on false pretenses, presiding over a corrupt, dishonest and incompetent administration, subverting the bind eye by which the criminal justice  system is supposed to be operated for purely political reasons, outing covert intelleigence agents for political reasons, trashing many different decent people for political reasons, swfit-boating a war hero while giving draft dodgers a free pass, and all other manner of acts and treason &#8212; high crimes and misdemeanors if you will &#8211; that seem decidedly anti-American to me.  </p>
<p>So what you do is point to the symbol &#8211; the flag, or a flag lapel pin, or a phrase like &#8220;God Bless America&#8221; &#8212; and you make those symbols sacrosanct, suggesting that words or acts calling those pristeen symbols into question or disrepute &#8212; regardless of what they really signify or are intended to mean &#8212; reflect a lack of loyalty or patriotism or fidelity to the values we cherish &#8220;as Americans&#8221; as if the symbols empbody some universal values that all Americans hold.  When in fact, while sanctifying those symbols, the cultists who are subordinate theor own actions to those symbols and what they supposedly represent are acting in a way that is an affront to the real values that those symbols are supposed to represent &#8212; liberty, equality, justice, fairness, equity, respect and compassion.  </p>
<p>I guess the media and the GOP both depend on an inattentive and intellectually lazy public to allow discourse at this warped level to continue in this way,  relatively unchallenged.  It makes all the sense in the world that Bush in an anti-intellectual, surrounded by people who accuse anybody who incorporates nuance into their thinking or words of being an &#8220;elitist.&#8221;   It plays right to the wheelhouse of the inattentive and  intellectually lazy.  Time to stop listening to what they say, and start paying attention to what they do.   And in the case of Wright, and his inflammatory comments, we are not at the point as a society where we can examine his words fairly and without emotion &#8212; too much political gain to be had from attacking them reflexively &#8212; and since the media has abidcated its role as a fourth estate which questions the conventional wisdom as imparted by those in power, in favor of serving their corporate masters, it is unlikely to change anytime soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffro</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/06/02/cats-and-dogs-living-together-msm-slagging-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-4657</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2428#comment-4657</guid>
		<description>If you listen to the sermon you&#039;ll see he was damning the American government, which most Americans, and especially our Conservative sisters and brothers, do regularly and vehemently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you listen to the sermon you&#8217;ll see he was damning the American government, which most Americans, and especially our Conservative sisters and brothers, do regularly and vehemently.</p>
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		<title>By: Eunha</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/06/02/cats-and-dogs-living-together-msm-slagging-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-4654</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2428#comment-4654</guid>
		<description>I wonder how many members of the thinking press were taken by surprise by how quickly and fiercely the news caught on with the general public.  The &quot;popularity&quot; of the news must have been, to some degree, unforeseen precisely because of the points you stress particularly in your conclusion.  Scapegoating, projecting and displacing are words that can also explain how the Wright affair unfolded among the general public, while the media played rather effectively the  role of making visible, as well as exacerbating (and exploiting), such an unfortunate development.  I say unfortunate because, as you astutely point out, what on earth is it meant when the name &quot;America&quot; in invoked?  Where lies (or hides) its referent?  Does such a referent indeed exist before and after the imagined constitution of the nation?  Is it territorial, geopolitical, historical, sociological, aesthetic, spiritual, etc?  And if the composition of the referent proves as heterogeneous as to integrate all these multiple aspects, then, we&#039;d better believe that our deployment of the term responds (or reacts) to equally diverse reasons and purposes.   Perhaps &quot;America&quot; is the site where Continental and Analytical philosophy should declare truce, in that America is both a name and a problem that demand out constant and diligent grappling with it.  It comprises sets of data susceptible to the (perhaps impatient) pragmatism of the analytical mind, but it evokes a world of realities that must be content with unspecific metaphors and symbolism rather than hermetic concepts.  America (even Wright&#039;s) is both a name and a &quot;problem&quot; reflective of a single unchanging truth: its (very fortunate) unfinalizability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder how many members of the thinking press were taken by surprise by how quickly and fiercely the news caught on with the general public.  The &#8220;popularity&#8221; of the news must have been, to some degree, unforeseen precisely because of the points you stress particularly in your conclusion.  Scapegoating, projecting and displacing are words that can also explain how the Wright affair unfolded among the general public, while the media played rather effectively the  role of making visible, as well as exacerbating (and exploiting), such an unfortunate development.  I say unfortunate because, as you astutely point out, what on earth is it meant when the name &#8220;America&#8221; in invoked?  Where lies (or hides) its referent?  Does such a referent indeed exist before and after the imagined constitution of the nation?  Is it territorial, geopolitical, historical, sociological, aesthetic, spiritual, etc?  And if the composition of the referent proves as heterogeneous as to integrate all these multiple aspects, then, we&#8217;d better believe that our deployment of the term responds (or reacts) to equally diverse reasons and purposes.   Perhaps &#8220;America&#8221; is the site where Continental and Analytical philosophy should declare truce, in that America is both a name and a problem that demand out constant and diligent grappling with it.  It comprises sets of data susceptible to the (perhaps impatient) pragmatism of the analytical mind, but it evokes a world of realities that must be content with unspecific metaphors and symbolism rather than hermetic concepts.  America (even Wright&#8217;s) is both a name and a &#8220;problem&#8221; reflective of a single unchanging truth: its (very fortunate) unfinalizability.</p>
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		<title>By: kaleb</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/06/02/cats-and-dogs-living-together-msm-slagging-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-4653</link>
		<dc:creator>kaleb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2428#comment-4653</guid>
		<description>&quot;His version of history is of the paranoid conspiracy kind.&quot;

So is the version of those most loudly denouncing Wright.  The McCarthyite, Vince Foster-obsessed, Secret-Muslim-opposing right wing lives in a paranoid worldview so widely shared that it&#039;s made the political equivalent of a jump from cult fringe to respected institutional religion.  Wright&#039;s ravings are no more ignorant than those of Bill Kristol, though his sermons can be uglier in tone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;His version of history is of the paranoid conspiracy kind.&#8221;</p>
<p>So is the version of those most loudly denouncing Wright.  The McCarthyite, Vince Foster-obsessed, Secret-Muslim-opposing right wing lives in a paranoid worldview so widely shared that it&#8217;s made the political equivalent of a jump from cult fringe to respected institutional religion.  Wright&#8217;s ravings are no more ignorant than those of Bill Kristol, though his sermons can be uglier in tone.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/06/02/cats-and-dogs-living-together-msm-slagging-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-4652</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2428#comment-4652</guid>
		<description>What gets me is that so many people call Wright a racist when he was actually preaching against racism.  Sure he&#039;s angry and a bit paranoid, but quite good at his craft.

I went and listened to some more of his sermons and enjoyed them.  He&#039;s a complex guy with some deep ideas, but he&#039;s not a racist.

I also am constantly puzzled by the idea of loving or hating America.  By themselves, they are absolutely meaningless ideas.  And yet they seem to have so much meaning for so many.

White guy, agnostic, in the Deep South</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What gets me is that so many people call Wright a racist when he was actually preaching against racism.  Sure he&#8217;s angry and a bit paranoid, but quite good at his craft.</p>
<p>I went and listened to some more of his sermons and enjoyed them.  He&#8217;s a complex guy with some deep ideas, but he&#8217;s not a racist.</p>
<p>I also am constantly puzzled by the idea of loving or hating America.  By themselves, they are absolutely meaningless ideas.  And yet they seem to have so much meaning for so many.</p>
<p>White guy, agnostic, in the Deep South</p>
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		<title>By: Dave F</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/06/02/cats-and-dogs-living-together-msm-slagging-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-4651</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2428#comment-4651</guid>
		<description>We can agree American journalists don&#039;t hate America (most of them, presumably, anyway), but building your argument around the &quot;God damn America&quot; bit is somewhat disingenuous.
Reading the whole text reveals the awfulness of Wright&#039;s ravings. They are by turns ignorant and hysterical, or both simultaneously.  His version of history is of the paranoid conspiracy kind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We can agree American journalists don&#8217;t hate America (most of them, presumably, anyway), but building your argument around the &#8220;God damn America&#8221; bit is somewhat disingenuous.<br />
Reading the whole text reveals the awfulness of Wright&#8217;s ravings. They are by turns ignorant and hysterical, or both simultaneously.  His version of history is of the paranoid conspiracy kind.</p>
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		<title>By: marc w.</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/06/02/cats-and-dogs-living-together-msm-slagging-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-4647</link>
		<dc:creator>marc w.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2428#comment-4647</guid>
		<description>I think Kevin&#039;s right; there&#039;s no way most journalists here the clip and yawn.  

I&#039;d think most any journalist would hear the sweet, sweet sounds of controversy.    

Does the lead-up to the sound bite soften it or contextualize it?   Sure.    Better then to cut it out.   


Look, it&#039;s not the sole province of conservative blogs to see and attempt to exploit something like this - political journalism these days often seems nothing more than the procession of &#039;gotcha&#039; stories and reaction pieces to previous &#039;gotchas.&#039;    These stories seem to be highly prized by many in journalism... I do wonder if some of this due to some feeling that they&#039;d dropped the ball on Trent Lott&#039;s quote; they seem even more sensitive to gaffes/mis-statements/potentially embarrassing asides.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Kevin&#8217;s right; there&#8217;s no way most journalists here the clip and yawn.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d think most any journalist would hear the sweet, sweet sounds of controversy.    </p>
<p>Does the lead-up to the sound bite soften it or contextualize it?   Sure.    Better then to cut it out.   </p>
<p>Look, it&#8217;s not the sole province of conservative blogs to see and attempt to exploit something like this &#8211; political journalism these days often seems nothing more than the procession of &#8216;gotcha&#8217; stories and reaction pieces to previous &#8216;gotchas.&#8217;    These stories seem to be highly prized by many in journalism&#8230; I do wonder if some of this due to some feeling that they&#8217;d dropped the ball on Trent Lott&#8217;s quote; they seem even more sensitive to gaffes/mis-statements/potentially embarrassing asides.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin B. O'Reilly</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/06/02/cats-and-dogs-living-together-msm-slagging-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-4641</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin B. O'Reilly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2428#comment-4641</guid>
		<description>Well, for something that was so boring the news media (eventually) gave it a heck of a lot of attention. Pfleger&#039;s view of Hillary shouldn&#039;t shock anyone, least of all journalists, yet that&#039;s been all over the TV the last couple of days. So, I guess I just don&#039;t buy the premise that the news media&#039;s been ignoring this stuff.

But let&#039;s say we buy that, the reason then that Hagee&#039;s comments on God creating the Holocaust so that Jews would go back to Israel is because ... journalists didn&#039;t find them tedious?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, for something that was so boring the news media (eventually) gave it a heck of a lot of attention. Pfleger&#8217;s view of Hillary shouldn&#8217;t shock anyone, least of all journalists, yet that&#8217;s been all over the TV the last couple of days. So, I guess I just don&#8217;t buy the premise that the news media&#8217;s been ignoring this stuff.</p>
<p>But let&#8217;s say we buy that, the reason then that Hagee&#8217;s comments on God creating the Holocaust so that Jews would go back to Israel is because &#8230; journalists didn&#8217;t find them tedious?</p>
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		<title>By: southpaw</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2008/06/02/cats-and-dogs-living-together-msm-slagging-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-4640</link>
		<dc:creator>southpaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juliansanchez.com/?p=2428#comment-4640</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Second, a journalist of any moderate experience is likely to recognize that underlying critique as almost tediously familiar, even if worded more angrily than usual. And it’s easy to forget that plenty of Americans don’t ever hear this sort of attack, and certainly not worded this way.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;d go so far as to say that this particular form of sophistication is more broadly based, and that not very many Americans are so completely unaware of the far left&#039;s critique of foreign policy.  In other words, it may be possible that some members of powerline&#039;s audience hasn&#039;t heard this before.  Nevertheless, it&#039;s pretty much certain that someone like John Hinderaker--educated at Dartmouth and Harvard Law--has heard this all before and does find it tediously familiar.  

Hinderaker sees political advantage in this making a big deal out of it because the extremity of Wright&#039;s expression makes it very difficult for more sober voices on the left to mount a limited defense of Wright&#039;s underlying critique.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Second, a journalist of any moderate experience is likely to recognize that underlying critique as almost tediously familiar, even if worded more angrily than usual. And it’s easy to forget that plenty of Americans don’t ever hear this sort of attack, and certainly not worded this way.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;d go so far as to say that this particular form of sophistication is more broadly based, and that not very many Americans are so completely unaware of the far left&#8217;s critique of foreign policy.  In other words, it may be possible that some members of powerline&#8217;s audience hasn&#8217;t heard this before.  Nevertheless, it&#8217;s pretty much certain that someone like John Hinderaker&#8211;educated at Dartmouth and Harvard Law&#8211;has heard this all before and does find it tediously familiar.  </p>
<p>Hinderaker sees political advantage in this making a big deal out of it because the extremity of Wright&#8217;s expression makes it very difficult for more sober voices on the left to mount a limited defense of Wright&#8217;s underlying critique.</p>
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