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	<title>Comments on: You Tell Me That It&#8217;s Evolution</title>
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	<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/</link>
	<description>Just another geek in the geek kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Julian Elson</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-3436</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Elson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2118#comment-3436</guid>
		<description>In practice, though, how does this happen? It seems to me that if you&#039;re smart, funny, etc, you&#039;re more attractive, to be sure, but does that really improve reproductive success? It seems to me that the main benefit of being attractive is getting an attractive mate, which is nice for you, but doesn&#039;t mean you have a bunch of kids. Your husband doesn&#039;t have to be tall, dark, or handsome to knock you up, nor does your wife have to have a brilliant sense of humor and perfect white teeth to get knocked up.

It seems to me that social class could be important, since wealth can provide a lifestyle which leads to somewhat reduced infant and childhood mortality. If selected factors lead to wealth, as Gregory Clark hypothesizes, then that could work. Another trait that might be selected for is a sheer &lt;i&gt;desire&lt;/i&gt; to have kids -- at least, in times when this was often a matter of choice.

Maybe I&#039;m just thinking too much of sexual selection in terms of &quot;the right tail of the funny/smart/sexy bell curve has great reproductive success,&quot; rather than &quot;the left tail gets cut off,&quot; where the most inept/unattractive people don&#039;t find mates even among each other. Over time, though, I suppose the effect would be the same.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In practice, though, how does this happen? It seems to me that if you&#8217;re smart, funny, etc, you&#8217;re more attractive, to be sure, but does that really improve reproductive success? It seems to me that the main benefit of being attractive is getting an attractive mate, which is nice for you, but doesn&#8217;t mean you have a bunch of kids. Your husband doesn&#8217;t have to be tall, dark, or handsome to knock you up, nor does your wife have to have a brilliant sense of humor and perfect white teeth to get knocked up.</p>
<p>It seems to me that social class could be important, since wealth can provide a lifestyle which leads to somewhat reduced infant and childhood mortality. If selected factors lead to wealth, as Gregory Clark hypothesizes, then that could work. Another trait that might be selected for is a sheer <i>desire</i> to have kids &#8212; at least, in times when this was often a matter of choice.</p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m just thinking too much of sexual selection in terms of &#8220;the right tail of the funny/smart/sexy bell curve has great reproductive success,&#8221; rather than &#8220;the left tail gets cut off,&#8221; where the most inept/unattractive people don&#8217;t find mates even among each other. Over time, though, I suppose the effect would be the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Rice</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-3435</link>
		<dc:creator>Rice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2118#comment-3435</guid>
		<description>Just in case any of you are interested, one of the authors has a somewhat simplified description of they believe is occuring on his website.  Be warned that its long, but it may help clear up some of the confusion I see here.

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/topics/evolution/selection/acceleration/accel_story_2007.html



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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just in case any of you are interested, one of the authors has a somewhat simplified description of they believe is occuring on his website.  Be warned that its long, but it may help clear up some of the confusion I see here.</p>
<p><a href="http://johnhawks.net/weblog/topics/evolution/selection/acceleration/accel_story_2007.html" rel="nofollow">http://johnhawks.net/weblog/topics/evolution/selection/acceleration/accel_story_2007.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Glen</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-3434</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 06:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2118#comment-3434</guid>
		<description>&quot;Within the scientifically literate community, &#039;evolution&#039; just means ramdon genetic mutation plus selection by virtue of death or reproductive failure -- movement away from specific failures, but not towards any specific success or goal.&quot;

True, but the study doesn&#039;t say there has merely been faster evolution (in the sense of genetic change over time), but faster &lt;em&gt;positive adaptation&lt;/em&gt;, meaning the emergence and spread of traits that enhance survival and reproduction.

&quot;but it seems as if pretty much anyone in this day and age can find a mate and reproduce--the number of people being &quot;weeded out&quot; has got to be very low, relatively, and mostly represents pruning.&quot;

The study shows that positive adaptation has accelerated in the last 5000 years.  The last 200 or so years, which is the period during which capitalist wealth plus welfare statism might possibly have made it possible for &quot;pretty much anyone&quot; to breed, is just a blip at the end of that 5000-year time period.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Within the scientifically literate community, &#8216;evolution&#8217; just means ramdon genetic mutation plus selection by virtue of death or reproductive failure &#8212; movement away from specific failures, but not towards any specific success or goal.&#8221;</p>
<p>True, but the study doesn&#8217;t say there has merely been faster evolution (in the sense of genetic change over time), but faster <em>positive adaptation</em>, meaning the emergence and spread of traits that enhance survival and reproduction.</p>
<p>&#8220;but it seems as if pretty much anyone in this day and age can find a mate and reproduce&#8211;the number of people being &#8220;weeded out&#8221; has got to be very low, relatively, and mostly represents pruning.&#8221;</p>
<p>The study shows that positive adaptation has accelerated in the last 5000 years.  The last 200 or so years, which is the period during which capitalist wealth plus welfare statism might possibly have made it possible for &#8220;pretty much anyone&#8221; to breed, is just a blip at the end of that 5000-year time period.</p>
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		<title>By: BostonSatyr</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-3433</link>
		<dc:creator>BostonSatyr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2118#comment-3433</guid>
		<description>I agree with Daniel - there often is a dissonance between scientific understanding of a concept and the general public&#039;s, especially those with no scientific experience beyond a few Bill Nye the Science Guy reruns (i.e. creationists trying to claim that the Grand Canyon is evidence of Noah&#039;s flood).

One thing that bothers me about the race/IQ story is the way we measure IQ.  I remember an article about five years ago being published that claimed the way we test IQ creates results that fall along racial lines, the same way standardized tests do.  It&#039;s not that people of different races have different levels of intelligence.  Instead, they have different attitudes based on their upbringing and neighborhood culture, regarding tests and whether actually trying to puruse scholarly things like IQ tests will ever do them any good.  I wonder if they were to compare children of different races, but raised in the same neighborhood/culture, and then see if there were disparate results.  My guess is that there would be insignificant differences.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Daniel &#8211; there often is a dissonance between scientific understanding of a concept and the general public&#8217;s, especially those with no scientific experience beyond a few Bill Nye the Science Guy reruns (i.e. creationists trying to claim that the Grand Canyon is evidence of Noah&#8217;s flood).</p>
<p>One thing that bothers me about the race/IQ story is the way we measure IQ.  I remember an article about five years ago being published that claimed the way we test IQ creates results that fall along racial lines, the same way standardized tests do.  It&#8217;s not that people of different races have different levels of intelligence.  Instead, they have different attitudes based on their upbringing and neighborhood culture, regarding tests and whether actually trying to puruse scholarly things like IQ tests will ever do them any good.  I wonder if they were to compare children of different races, but raised in the same neighborhood/culture, and then see if there were disparate results.  My guess is that there would be insignificant differences.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-3432</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2118#comment-3432</guid>
		<description>For example:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/the-next-paradi.html
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For example:</p>
<p><a href="http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/the-next-paradi.html" rel="nofollow">http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/the-next-paradi.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-3431</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2118#comment-3431</guid>
		<description>Wasn&#039;t talking about you guys... more about the pop science reporting and how it&#039;s interpreted by most people, which is that evolution is when the wind and rain works for years and years to form... Mt. Rushmore, presidents and all.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wasn&#8217;t talking about you guys&#8230; more about the pop science reporting and how it&#8217;s interpreted by most people, which is that evolution is when the wind and rain works for years and years to form&#8230; Mt. Rushmore, presidents and all.</p>
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		<title>By: LP</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-3430</link>
		<dc:creator>LP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2118#comment-3430</guid>
		<description>1. Fred S. misses an important point, which I think has been made right here at least 3,000 times: it is absolutely consistent to believe that (a) evolutionary forces may have affected the cognitive attributes of certain groups (racial, gender, whatever) in diverse ways, leading to some genetic difference in average group intelligence, BUT (b) tests claiming to measure &#039;intelligence&#039; are biased enough that the results they produce have more to do with the testing methods than with any measurable difference in actual intelligence, AND/OR (c) any putative genetic component of intelligence is dwarfed by natural variation between individuals of the same group, making it pretty much irrelevant.&lt;br /&gt;

2. Daniel -- what? Within the scientifically literate community, &#039;evolution&#039; just means ramdon genetic mutation plus selection by virtue of death or reproductive failure -- movement away from specific failures, but not towards any specific success or goal. I don&#039;t think anyone here interprets &#039;evolution&#039; to mean &#039;progress,&#039; which seems to be what you&#039;re concerned about. Outside the scientifically literate community, I think most people who don&#039;t actively reject evolution regard it as a neat device invented by God. This raises an interesting question, though -- if evolution is working faster, do &#039;intelligent design&#039; theorists believe we are being pushed closer and closer to the ultimate state of humanity God has in mind? In other words, is this a sign of the apocalypse?
&lt;br /&gt;
3. One of the geneticists commenting in the BBC article espouses exactly the &#039;cruder view&#039; of evolution you mention, noting that since survival-selection pressures have eased, we should expect to see that evolution is now slowing down dramatically, at least until the arms race with the microbes starts. I am probably not qualified to comment on whether your mate-selection theory is plausible, but it&#039;s worth noting that one of the recent and widespread changes the article mentions is fair skin and blue eyes in Northern Europe, traits that are believed to be linked to mate-selection (rather than survival-selection) in cold climates.
&lt;br /&gt;
4. &#039;The Supermodel Peacocks&#039; = good name for an ironic post-punk band?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Fred S. misses an important point, which I think has been made right here at least 3,000 times: it is absolutely consistent to believe that (a) evolutionary forces may have affected the cognitive attributes of certain groups (racial, gender, whatever) in diverse ways, leading to some genetic difference in average group intelligence, BUT (b) tests claiming to measure &#8216;intelligence&#8217; are biased enough that the results they produce have more to do with the testing methods than with any measurable difference in actual intelligence, AND/OR (c) any putative genetic component of intelligence is dwarfed by natural variation between individuals of the same group, making it pretty much irrelevant.</p>
<p>2. Daniel &#8212; what? Within the scientifically literate community, &#8216;evolution&#8217; just means ramdon genetic mutation plus selection by virtue of death or reproductive failure &#8212; movement away from specific failures, but not towards any specific success or goal. I don&#8217;t think anyone here interprets &#8216;evolution&#8217; to mean &#8216;progress,&#8217; which seems to be what you&#8217;re concerned about. Outside the scientifically literate community, I think most people who don&#8217;t actively reject evolution regard it as a neat device invented by God. This raises an interesting question, though &#8212; if evolution is working faster, do &#8216;intelligent design&#8217; theorists believe we are being pushed closer and closer to the ultimate state of humanity God has in mind? In other words, is this a sign of the apocalypse?<br />
<br />
3. One of the geneticists commenting in the BBC article espouses exactly the &#8216;cruder view&#8217; of evolution you mention, noting that since survival-selection pressures have eased, we should expect to see that evolution is now slowing down dramatically, at least until the arms race with the microbes starts. I am probably not qualified to comment on whether your mate-selection theory is plausible, but it&#8217;s worth noting that one of the recent and widespread changes the article mentions is fair skin and blue eyes in Northern Europe, traits that are believed to be linked to mate-selection (rather than survival-selection) in cold climates.<br />
<br />
4. &#8216;The Supermodel Peacocks&#8217; = good name for an ironic post-punk band?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-3429</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 03:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2118#comment-3429</guid>
		<description>Sorry, the last point I meant to make was that people would read that report, see &quot;evolution&quot; and think either that we will soon be able to move planets with our minds, or that the selection of our genes will soon usher in an age of peace and tranquility. Really what this &quot;feedback loop&quot; probably means, on the grand scale, is that we&#039;re in an evolutionary tide pool, or rather one of those pockets of stillwater on the side of a creek.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, the last point I meant to make was that people would read that report, see &#8220;evolution&#8221; and think either that we will soon be able to move planets with our minds, or that the selection of our genes will soon usher in an age of peace and tranquility. Really what this &#8220;feedback loop&#8221; probably means, on the grand scale, is that we&#8217;re in an evolutionary tide pool, or rather one of those pockets of stillwater on the side of a creek.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-3428</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 03:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2118#comment-3428</guid>
		<description>When I read this story earlier it seemed to me like bullshit--I am firmly of the (non-scientific)opinion that &quot;evolution&quot; is no longer acting on us. The trick, of course, is in the quotes.

I&#039;m not anywhere near as pessimistic as Mike Judge (the movie Idiocracy really NEEDED to be referenced in this discussion. I was just here to make it happen.) but it seems as if pretty much anyone in this day and age can find a mate and reproduce--the number of people being &quot;weeded out&quot; has got to be very low, relatively, and mostly represents pruning.

But then, I&#039;m talking about something else... I once read Christopher Hitchens say that he had hope for evolution to be an advancing force in the world; this struck me as actually kind of poignantly naive for such a truculent firebrand. In other words, it seems wrong to think that the force that brought us from just another ape to sentient human will continue its trajectory.

When the researchers in that story talk about evolution what they are really commenting on is the growing variety and changing nature of our genes--which, seems to me, probably has more to do with, I don&#039;t know, the population than anything else.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read this story earlier it seemed to me like bullshit&#8211;I am firmly of the (non-scientific)opinion that &#8220;evolution&#8221; is no longer acting on us. The trick, of course, is in the quotes.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not anywhere near as pessimistic as Mike Judge (the movie Idiocracy really NEEDED to be referenced in this discussion. I was just here to make it happen.) but it seems as if pretty much anyone in this day and age can find a mate and reproduce&#8211;the number of people being &#8220;weeded out&#8221; has got to be very low, relatively, and mostly represents pruning.</p>
<p>But then, I&#8217;m talking about something else&#8230; I once read Christopher Hitchens say that he had hope for evolution to be an advancing force in the world; this struck me as actually kind of poignantly naive for such a truculent firebrand. In other words, it seems wrong to think that the force that brought us from just another ape to sentient human will continue its trajectory.</p>
<p>When the researchers in that story talk about evolution what they are really commenting on is the growing variety and changing nature of our genes&#8211;which, seems to me, probably has more to do with, I don&#8217;t know, the population than anything else.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/12/11/you-tell-me-that-its-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-3427</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry, I guess I was vague here.  I was imagining the tool-making brain as part of what *provided* the mastery of nature that allowed the feedback-loop to kick in, not as itself the product of the feedback loop.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I guess I was vague here.  I was imagining the tool-making brain as part of what *provided* the mastery of nature that allowed the feedback-loop to kick in, not as itself the product of the feedback loop.</p>
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