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	<title>Comments on: Are We There Yet? Are We There Yet?  Are We There Yet?</title>
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	<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/11/06/are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet/</link>
	<description>Just another geek in the geek kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/11/06/are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-3280</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2071#comment-3280</guid>
		<description>The impatience here is not only somewhat wrongheaded, but (more obviously) incredibly ballsy. 50 years of a relatively undisturbed, steadily degrading status quo, engineered from the ground up by a long-standing political monopoly, would, you&#039;d think, chasten defenders of that system a little. Especially when so many school choice skeptics (excepting the broad-minded Ezra Klein in this case) often appear totally mystified by the fact that this brilliant arrangement fails to churn out thousands upon thousands of Mini Spinozas year after year.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The impatience here is not only somewhat wrongheaded, but (more obviously) incredibly ballsy. 50 years of a relatively undisturbed, steadily degrading status quo, engineered from the ground up by a long-standing political monopoly, would, you&#8217;d think, chasten defenders of that system a little. Especially when so many school choice skeptics (excepting the broad-minded Ezra Klein in this case) often appear totally mystified by the fact that this brilliant arrangement fails to churn out thousands upon thousands of Mini Spinozas year after year.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Buck</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/11/06/are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-3279</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Buck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2071#comment-3279</guid>
		<description>Also, Julian, one complication with this: &lt;blockquote&gt;If a broad, well-designed, and generous voucher program shows no advantages a decade in, then obviously that&#039;s more telling . . . .&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not necessarily.  Note that there are a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/ewp_02.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;few&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.naringslivsforskning.se/Wfiles/wp/WP578.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;studies &lt;/a&gt; indicating that vouchers may put competitive pressure on public schools to improve or else.  If you had a broad and generous voucher program (rather than a pittance of a program), then if there is indeed pressure from competition, that effect would presumably be greater.  Thus, if it turns out that, after 10 years, a voucher program had improved performance in both public and private schools, it might not look like the voucher students had improved relative to the public school students (indeed, it&#039;s conceivable that voucher students could get &lt;i&gt;relatively&lt;/i&gt; worse even if everyone was improving in an &lt;i&gt;absolute&lt;/i&gt; sense!).  Voucher researchers are currently trying to figure out a way to correct for this potential complication, but it&#039;s worth noting.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Julian, one complication with this:<br />
<blockquote>If a broad, well-designed, and generous voucher program shows no advantages a decade in, then obviously that&#8217;s more telling . . . .</p></blockquote>
<p>Not necessarily.  Note that there are a <a href="http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/ewp_02.pdf" rel="nofollow">few</a> <a href="http://www.naringslivsforskning.se/Wfiles/wp/WP578.pdf" rel="nofollow">studies </a> indicating that vouchers may put competitive pressure on public schools to improve or else.  If you had a broad and generous voucher program (rather than a pittance of a program), then if there is indeed pressure from competition, that effect would presumably be greater.  Thus, if it turns out that, after 10 years, a voucher program had improved performance in both public and private schools, it might not look like the voucher students had improved relative to the public school students (indeed, it&#8217;s conceivable that voucher students could get <i>relatively</i> worse even if everyone was improving in an <i>absolute</i> sense!).  Voucher researchers are currently trying to figure out a way to correct for this potential complication, but it&#8217;s worth noting.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/11/06/are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-3278</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 20:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2071#comment-3278</guid>
		<description>Tell the truth Stuart - you were practicing your Care Bear Stare while posting, weren&#039;t you? I mean, how else to explain Ezra&#039;s disappearing act? It couldn&#039;t be that you had the goods on his slight-of-hand reference to the voluminous RAND study. Unfortunate that someone actually read the damn thing, I guess.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tell the truth Stuart &#8211; you were practicing your Care Bear Stare while posting, weren&#8217;t you? I mean, how else to explain Ezra&#8217;s disappearing act? It couldn&#8217;t be that you had the goods on his slight-of-hand reference to the voluminous RAND study. Unfortunate that someone actually read the damn thing, I guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Buck</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/11/06/are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-3277</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Buck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=2071#comment-3277</guid>
		<description>Also, Ezra cites the Krueger/Zhu paper as finding that there were no positive results from the New York vouchers.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3288426.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; is a persuasive view that Krueger/Zhu were wrong.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Ezra cites the Krueger/Zhu paper as finding that there were no positive results from the New York vouchers.  <a href="http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3288426.html" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is a persuasive view that Krueger/Zhu were wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Buck</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/11/06/are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-3276</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Buck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>To be sure, those positive results are for black kids, and the results of those experiments are more ambiguous if you look at whether &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; students improved.  But to those of us who spend a lot of time worrying about how to remedy the black-white achievement gap, a policy that seems to help primarily black students is ideal.  Or at least worth more exploration, experimentation, and expansion.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be sure, those positive results are for black kids, and the results of those experiments are more ambiguous if you look at whether <i>all</i> students improved.  But to those of us who spend a lot of time worrying about how to remedy the black-white achievement gap, a policy that seems to help primarily black students is ideal.  Or at least worth more exploration, experimentation, and expansion.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Buck</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/11/06/are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-3275</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Buck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ezra is also cherry-picking a bit.  In his post responding to this one, he says, &quot;I&#039;ve posted the conclusions of books, studies, and RAND monographs.&quot;  Well, no.

His previous post did link to the RAND book that reviewed voucher evidence, but only to quote a single paragraph on Pat Wolf&#039;s recent study of the federally funded voucher program in DC.  Anyone who reads just a few pages further in that book will be told -- precisely contrary to what Ezra says -- that &quot;the most compelling evidence available on the achievement effects of vouchers&quot; is a series of randomized experiments from New York, DC, Dayton, and Charlotte showing that black kids improved by &quot;one-third of a standard deviation — fairly large in terms of most educational interventions, equal to about one-third of the average racial gap in achievement in the country.&quot;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ezra is also cherry-picking a bit.  In his post responding to this one, he says, &#8220;I&#8217;ve posted the conclusions of books, studies, and RAND monographs.&#8221;  Well, no.</p>
<p>His previous post did link to the RAND book that reviewed voucher evidence, but only to quote a single paragraph on Pat Wolf&#8217;s recent study of the federally funded voucher program in DC.  Anyone who reads just a few pages further in that book will be told &#8212; precisely contrary to what Ezra says &#8212; that &#8220;the most compelling evidence available on the achievement effects of vouchers&#8221; is a series of randomized experiments from New York, DC, Dayton, and Charlotte showing that black kids improved by &#8220;one-third of a standard deviation — fairly large in terms of most educational interventions, equal to about one-third of the average racial gap in achievement in the country.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/11/06/are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-3274</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Right, and as I say in the post, those results are, if not yet dispositive, perfectly reasonable to introduce as evidence.  First-year results, not so much.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, and as I say in the post, those results are, if not yet dispositive, perfectly reasonable to introduce as evidence.  First-year results, not so much.</p>
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		<title>By: Ezra</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/11/06/are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet-are-we-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-3273</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sigh.  I&#039;ve also posted about the absence of positive results from the multiyear, multimillion dollar systems created in Dayton, Milwaukee, and New York.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sigh.  I&#8217;ve also posted about the absence of positive results from the multiyear, multimillion dollar systems created in Dayton, Milwaukee, and New York.</p>
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