<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: School Choice for Me, but Not for Thee</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/</link>
	<description>Just another geek in the geek kingdom</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:57:33 -0400</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: D</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/comment-page-1/#comment-1770</link>
		<dc:creator>D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1649#comment-1770</guid>
		<description>Actually, many voucher plans have not allowed parents to supplement the voucher with their own funds. This is one aspect of the way in which most voucher plans--the few that we&#039;ve had in this country--have been set up to fail.

As for Reality Man&#039;s comments, they have little to do with reality. There is a real lack of conclusive data on the subject, but it&#039;s hard to do much worse than this country&#039;s worst public schools. Moreover--and this is born out by research--the crucial advantage in say, an inner-city Catholic school is not so much educational in the sense of student achievement as defined by standardized test scores, as it is in the middle-class cultural habits that these schools are better at inculcating. Catholic schools help give inner-city kids certain &lt;i&gt;massive&lt;/i&gt; cultural advantages. Any responsible discussion of school choice has to include this element.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, many voucher plans have not allowed parents to supplement the voucher with their own funds. This is one aspect of the way in which most voucher plans&#8211;the few that we&#8217;ve had in this country&#8211;have been set up to fail.</p>
<p>As for Reality Man&#8217;s comments, they have little to do with reality. There is a real lack of conclusive data on the subject, but it&#8217;s hard to do much worse than this country&#8217;s worst public schools. Moreover&#8211;and this is born out by research&#8211;the crucial advantage in say, an inner-city Catholic school is not so much educational in the sense of student achievement as defined by standardized test scores, as it is in the middle-class cultural habits that these schools are better at inculcating. Catholic schools help give inner-city kids certain <i>massive</i> cultural advantages. Any responsible discussion of school choice has to include this element.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael B Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/comment-page-1/#comment-1769</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael B Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1649#comment-1769</guid>
		<description>Do any voucher programs work like what?  Do you mean, do any of them allow you to cover part of the cost of a school with your own money, and part with the voucher?

My impression is that all proposed voucher systems work that way, including the Utah system which is actually going into effect.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do any voucher programs work like what?  Do you mean, do any of them allow you to cover part of the cost of a school with your own money, and part with the voucher?</p>
<p>My impression is that all proposed voucher systems work that way, including the Utah system which is actually going into effect.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Reality Man</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/comment-page-1/#comment-1768</link>
		<dc:creator>Reality Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 02:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1649#comment-1768</guid>
		<description>Good point, Michael B Sullivan. I hadn&#039;t thought of that. Do any voucher programs work like that? I really don&#039;t know much about the details.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point, Michael B Sullivan. I hadn&#8217;t thought of that. Do any voucher programs work like that? I really don&#8217;t know much about the details.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael B Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/comment-page-1/#comment-1767</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael B Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1649#comment-1767</guid>
		<description>Reality Man:

Everything happens at the margins.  If we gave out vouchers worth, say, $3000 per year, then obviously they wouldn&#039;t cover the, what $15,000-$20,000 per year that elite prep schools charge.  But there is a whole class of people who would like to send their kids to elite prep schools, and can cover &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; of the cost, but not all of it.  So those are people who would be able to afford elite schools, given a voucher, but can not afford it without a voucher.

Obviously, the higher the dollar value of the voucher, the bigger this group would be...  but it&#039;s a mistake to look only at people who can&#039;t afford to spend any of their own money on their children&#039;s schooling.

There are many things about vouchers that I find troubling, but this ain&#039;t one of them.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reality Man:</p>
<p>Everything happens at the margins.  If we gave out vouchers worth, say, $3000 per year, then obviously they wouldn&#8217;t cover the, what $15,000-$20,000 per year that elite prep schools charge.  But there is a whole class of people who would like to send their kids to elite prep schools, and can cover <i>some</i> of the cost, but not all of it.  So those are people who would be able to afford elite schools, given a voucher, but can not afford it without a voucher.</p>
<p>Obviously, the higher the dollar value of the voucher, the bigger this group would be&#8230;  but it&#8217;s a mistake to look only at people who can&#8217;t afford to spend any of their own money on their children&#8217;s schooling.</p>
<p>There are many things about vouchers that I find troubling, but this ain&#8217;t one of them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: c</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/comment-page-1/#comment-1766</link>
		<dc:creator>c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1649#comment-1766</guid>
		<description>Azael,

In the context of US politics, the Democrats are clearly the egalitarian party.  They are worried about inequality and are especially worried about systems that perpetuate inequality by foisting it on children who, by definition, are not the authors of their own circumstances.

So when egalitarians make vigorous use of an opt-out option while doing nothing to make their chosen option more available to other people, they are behaving in a fashion that can be characterized as inegalitarian.  This leaves them open to charges of hypocrisy.  And yes, I realize that their position is about vouchers in particular, not private schools in general.

But isn&#039;t it the egalitarian perspective that  takes a sort of realist position on choices and note the fact that we are all free to buy a given good means little if only a very few of us have the resources to do so?  In the case of education, it is arguable that real choices are out of reach of those who need them most.  The politicians who profess to show the most concern for the poor should be the first ones to press to establish their effective right to do what&#039;s best for their children.  But it&#039;s the opposite that obtains, whence the charges of hypocrisy.


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Azael,</p>
<p>In the context of US politics, the Democrats are clearly the egalitarian party.  They are worried about inequality and are especially worried about systems that perpetuate inequality by foisting it on children who, by definition, are not the authors of their own circumstances.</p>
<p>So when egalitarians make vigorous use of an opt-out option while doing nothing to make their chosen option more available to other people, they are behaving in a fashion that can be characterized as inegalitarian.  This leaves them open to charges of hypocrisy.  And yes, I realize that their position is about vouchers in particular, not private schools in general.</p>
<p>But isn&#8217;t it the egalitarian perspective that  takes a sort of realist position on choices and note the fact that we are all free to buy a given good means little if only a very few of us have the resources to do so?  In the case of education, it is arguable that real choices are out of reach of those who need them most.  The politicians who profess to show the most concern for the poor should be the first ones to press to establish their effective right to do what&#8217;s best for their children.  But it&#8217;s the opposite that obtains, whence the charges of hypocrisy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Reality Man</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/comment-page-1/#comment-1765</link>
		<dc:creator>Reality Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:35:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1649#comment-1765</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t vouchers tend to only cover enough to go to parochial schools? You&#039;re probably not going to send your kid to Andover or Groton on vouchers. Instead, they&#039;ll go to the private institutions that aren&#039;t really all that better than public schools in educating kids (in the case of private conservative religious schools, they fare worse than public schools) while giving kids weird sexual hangups. If we massively funded vouchers to the point we had to drastically cut military spending, maybe the hypocrisy charge would be more apt.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t vouchers tend to only cover enough to go to parochial schools? You&#8217;re probably not going to send your kid to Andover or Groton on vouchers. Instead, they&#8217;ll go to the private institutions that aren&#8217;t really all that better than public schools in educating kids (in the case of private conservative religious schools, they fare worse than public schools) while giving kids weird sexual hangups. If we massively funded vouchers to the point we had to drastically cut military spending, maybe the hypocrisy charge would be more apt.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Azael</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/comment-page-1/#comment-1764</link>
		<dc:creator>Azael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1649#comment-1764</guid>
		<description>Did he update the post?  I could have sworn I saw &quot;hypocrisy&quot; where I now see &quot;(ahem) ambivalence&quot;.  Oh well, maybe my eyes are getting too old.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did he update the post?  I could have sworn I saw &#8220;hypocrisy&#8221; where I now see &#8220;(ahem) ambivalence&#8221;.  Oh well, maybe my eyes are getting too old.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Newburn</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/comment-page-1/#comment-1763</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Newburn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1649#comment-1763</guid>
		<description>Where does Julian charge these 4 with &quot;hypocrisy.&quot;  The title of the post is absolutely correct, whether or not the act is hypocritical.  The candidates want  school choice for themselves, while denying it (at least de facto denying it) to others.  I don&#039;t see Julian&#039;s mistake.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where does Julian charge these 4 with &#8220;hypocrisy.&#8221;  The title of the post is absolutely correct, whether or not the act is hypocritical.  The candidates want  school choice for themselves, while denying it (at least de facto denying it) to others.  I don&#8217;t see Julian&#8217;s mistake.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Azael</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/comment-page-1/#comment-1762</link>
		<dc:creator>Azael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1649#comment-1762</guid>
		<description>This is just bizarro, Julian.  Read up on the definition of hypocritical.

My lord.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just bizarro, Julian.  Read up on the definition of hypocritical.</p>
<p>My lord.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael B Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2007/03/05/school-choice-for-me-but-not-for-thee/comment-page-1/#comment-1761</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael B Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1649#comment-1761</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it&#039;s not prima facia hypocritical.

On the other hand, it doesn&#039;t take a lot of work to see, if not hypocrisy, then some &lt;i&gt;tension&lt;/i&gt; in this position.  I&#039;m going to go ahead and assume that they aren&#039;t sending their kids to private school in a noble attempt to save valuable tax dollars for the children of people who can&#039;t afford to go to private schools.

(I&#039;m going to assume that because, based on my own experience with going to private schools throughout my educational career, &lt;i&gt;nobody&lt;/i&gt; thinks that.)

So they&#039;re sending their kids to private school because they don&#039;t like the quality of public schools in their area.

Now, okay, sure, they believe that vouchers will destroy public schools and they think that the best way to help kids is to improve public schools, not destroy them.  Sure.  That&#039;s fine.  But they are saying, &quot;Until we fix public schools, YOU poor/middle class folks can suffer through them, but WE upper class folks won&#039;t.&quot;

Not hypocritical, not indefensible, but... perhaps not quite the persona that they&#039;re trying to project.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s not prima facia hypocritical.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it doesn&#8217;t take a lot of work to see, if not hypocrisy, then some <i>tension</i> in this position.  I&#8217;m going to go ahead and assume that they aren&#8217;t sending their kids to private school in a noble attempt to save valuable tax dollars for the children of people who can&#8217;t afford to go to private schools.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;m going to assume that because, based on my own experience with going to private schools throughout my educational career, <i>nobody</i> thinks that.)</p>
<p>So they&#8217;re sending their kids to private school because they don&#8217;t like the quality of public schools in their area.</p>
<p>Now, okay, sure, they believe that vouchers will destroy public schools and they think that the best way to help kids is to improve public schools, not destroy them.  Sure.  That&#8217;s fine.  But they are saying, &#8220;Until we fix public schools, YOU poor/middle class folks can suffer through them, but WE upper class folks won&#8217;t.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not hypocritical, not indefensible, but&#8230; perhaps not quite the persona that they&#8217;re trying to project.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
