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	<title>Comments on: The Starry Heavens Above and the Moral Law Within (the Dorsolateral Prefrontal Cortex)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.juliansanchez.com/2006/08/11/the-starry-heavens-above-and-the-moral-law-within-the-dorsolateral-prefrontal-cortex/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2006/08/11/the-starry-heavens-above-and-the-moral-law-within-the-dorsolateral-prefrontal-cortex/</link>
	<description>Just another geek in the geek kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2006/08/11/the-starry-heavens-above-and-the-moral-law-within-the-dorsolateral-prefrontal-cortex/comment-page-1/#comment-1213</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1308#comment-1213</guid>
		<description>&gt;He recognizes, of course, that affective is &gt;involved at some level either wayÃ¢â?¬â?psychopath will &gt;not see any particular point to saving the five &gt;eitherÃ¢â?¬â?but in the cases where people give the &gt;classic deontological response, it seems like &gt;unreconstructed affect.

I think many advocates of reason-based ethics would say that they&#039;re not counting on psychopaths being persuaded to change their behavior based on abstract moral theories, but that you need reason to prove that what the psychopath is doing is wrong.  The point of ethics is not simply to persuade others how to act but also have a code of how to act oneself.

A recent UCLA PhD had ideologues and nonideologues thinking about politics under an MRI, and found that they did use different parts of the brain, similar to this experiment.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>He recognizes, of course, that affective is >involved at some level either wayÃ¢â?¬â?psychopath will >not see any particular point to saving the five >eitherÃ¢â?¬â?but in the cases where people give the >classic deontological response, it seems like >unreconstructed affect.</p>
<p>I think many advocates of reason-based ethics would say that they&#8217;re not counting on psychopaths being persuaded to change their behavior based on abstract moral theories, but that you need reason to prove that what the psychopath is doing is wrong.  The point of ethics is not simply to persuade others how to act but also have a code of how to act oneself.</p>
<p>A recent UCLA PhD had ideologues and nonideologues thinking about politics under an MRI, and found that they did use different parts of the brain, similar to this experiment.</p>
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		<title>By: Jadagul</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2006/08/11/the-starry-heavens-above-and-the-moral-law-within-the-dorsolateral-prefrontal-cortex/comment-page-1/#comment-1212</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadagul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1308#comment-1212</guid>
		<description>I agree with Glen and Will, I think.  I probably would have to self-describe as a utilitarian, or at least a consequentialist: I believe that moral rules are just a codification of &quot;what we need to do to live together without killing each other.&quot;  If you look at the temporal chunk of the Ten Commandments, it&#039;s pretty good advice both prudentially and utilitarian-ly.

But my particular brand of consequentialism says &quot;Things go better if we follow a set of general rules than if we try to evaluate each situation on its own merits.&quot;  So I believe in a pretty strong form of rights because it makes stuff turn out better, &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; I&#039;m a consequentialist.  Which brings us back to Glen&#039;s point: you compute general rules beforehand, and then don&#039;t have to do too much analysis when you come to a specific set of circumstances.  It might look like a gut reaction, or pure deontology, but it isn&#039;t really.

It occurs to me as I write this that Rand had made a similar point: your emotions are often an expression of judgments that you&#039;ve made intellectually and then internalized.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Glen and Will, I think.  I probably would have to self-describe as a utilitarian, or at least a consequentialist: I believe that moral rules are just a codification of &#8220;what we need to do to live together without killing each other.&#8221;  If you look at the temporal chunk of the Ten Commandments, it&#8217;s pretty good advice both prudentially and utilitarian-ly.</p>
<p>But my particular brand of consequentialism says &#8220;Things go better if we follow a set of general rules than if we try to evaluate each situation on its own merits.&#8221;  So I believe in a pretty strong form of rights because it makes stuff turn out better, <i>because</i> I&#8217;m a consequentialist.  Which brings us back to Glen&#8217;s point: you compute general rules beforehand, and then don&#8217;t have to do too much analysis when you come to a specific set of circumstances.  It might look like a gut reaction, or pure deontology, but it isn&#8217;t really.</p>
<p>It occurs to me as I write this that Rand had made a similar point: your emotions are often an expression of judgments that you&#8217;ve made intellectually and then internalized.</p>
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		<title>By: Glen</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2006/08/11/the-starry-heavens-above-and-the-moral-law-within-the-dorsolateral-prefrontal-cortex/comment-page-1/#comment-1211</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1308#comment-1211</guid>
		<description>&quot;The structure of consequentalist thought means that it&#039;s always going to require a kind of calculation, however quick and easy, in weighing costs and benefits in each particular case.&quot;

I think that&#039;s probably true only of direct forms of consequentialism (like act utilitarianism).  Indirect consequentialism can recommend rules that people internalize in much the same way you internalize your blackjack strategy.  Some of the rules may even be internalized genetically.  Perhaps the &quot;gut reaction&quot; responses that Greene documents actually reflect a kind of proto-utilitarian calculus based on more typical situations (as opposed to constructed thought experiments).  Where does this lead?  I suspect something like Will&#039;s response above, in which he awards the laurels to Darwin-cum-Hume-and-Smith.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The structure of consequentalist thought means that it&#8217;s always going to require a kind of calculation, however quick and easy, in weighing costs and benefits in each particular case.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that&#8217;s probably true only of direct forms of consequentialism (like act utilitarianism).  Indirect consequentialism can recommend rules that people internalize in much the same way you internalize your blackjack strategy.  Some of the rules may even be internalized genetically.  Perhaps the &#8220;gut reaction&#8221; responses that Greene documents actually reflect a kind of proto-utilitarian calculus based on more typical situations (as opposed to constructed thought experiments).  Where does this lead?  I suspect something like Will&#8217;s response above, in which he awards the laurels to Darwin-cum-Hume-and-Smith.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2006/08/11/the-starry-heavens-above-and-the-moral-law-within-the-dorsolateral-prefrontal-cortex/comment-page-1/#comment-1210</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1308#comment-1210</guid>
		<description>A related issue here is how rapid judgements also involve rapid perceptions, and how pre-existing assumptions, prejudices, training, etc. affect those perceptions. The classic case is the policeman who shoots the suspect because he thought there was a gun in his hand, but it turns out to be a wallet, or some other harmless object that might not even look much like a gun. The perception of the gun is based on other perceptions and instant judgements that are often incorrect.

Training can assist someone to better make the snap judgement, and it&#039;s probably that &quot;better&quot; in thise case means, &quot;make it so that it would conform to the decision that would be made if more time were available for both perception and reflection.

I&#039;ve heard a quote, &quot;You hope that people will rise to the occasion, but usually they go to the level of their training.&quot;

The trolley case can vary a lot, depending on whether you know any of the people involved, or, for example, if you are prejudiced against fat men. In real life situations, most people are simply going to do nothing.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A related issue here is how rapid judgements also involve rapid perceptions, and how pre-existing assumptions, prejudices, training, etc. affect those perceptions. The classic case is the policeman who shoots the suspect because he thought there was a gun in his hand, but it turns out to be a wallet, or some other harmless object that might not even look much like a gun. The perception of the gun is based on other perceptions and instant judgements that are often incorrect.</p>
<p>Training can assist someone to better make the snap judgement, and it&#8217;s probably that &#8220;better&#8221; in thise case means, &#8220;make it so that it would conform to the decision that would be made if more time were available for both perception and reflection.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard a quote, &#8220;You hope that people will rise to the occasion, but usually they go to the level of their training.&#8221;</p>
<p>The trolley case can vary a lot, depending on whether you know any of the people involved, or, for example, if you are prejudiced against fat men. In real life situations, most people are simply going to do nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2006/08/11/the-starry-heavens-above-and-the-moral-law-within-the-dorsolateral-prefrontal-cortex/comment-page-1/#comment-1209</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1308#comment-1209</guid>
		<description>By the way, Steven Stich and friends are doing the best naturalized moral psychology...

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~stich/Publications/publications2.htm
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, Steven Stich and friends are doing the best naturalized moral psychology&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~stich/Publications/publications2.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~stich/Publications/publications2.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.juliansanchez.com/2006/08/11/the-starry-heavens-above-and-the-moral-law-within-the-dorsolateral-prefrontal-cortex/comment-page-1/#comment-1208</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://juliansanchez.com/?p=1308#comment-1208</guid>
		<description>Julian, I met Greene at an AEI thing, and had many of the same thoughts, which I shared with him, and I don&#039;t remember what he said. (I wasn&#039;t impressed.)

Kant, I&#039;m sure, wouldn&#039;t be impressed with brainscans of heteronomous motivation. Of course, the mystery for people looking for Kantian normative bindingness is how autonomous motivation would look any different. The mystery for utilitarians is to find computations of involving their peculiar philosophic conception of utility. Neither thing is happening.

This stuff is relevant in only an ought-implies-can sort of way. My sense is that the brainscan stuff refutes hard deontology and hard utilitarianism. The motivational and cognitive requirements of either theory are impossible for us to satisfy, and therefore not obligatory.

I think actual, effective, non-utopian morality--the sort of thing that actually does enable peaceful cooperative social order--involves culturally relative, but psychologically strict-seeming, norms that engender a sense of categorical deontic restriction and obligation. But different contexts elicit different norms. Paradoxes arise when we can&#039;t resolve the context. Sometimes no norm is called. In the absence of a default deontic-seeming norm that internalizes and automates the calculation, on-the-spot prudential or consequentialist calculation may be called for.

My take reading the Greene, Haidt, etc., stuff is that the fight between Kant and Bentham is sort of irrelevant. The laurels go to a Darwinized version of Hume and Smith.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julian, I met Greene at an AEI thing, and had many of the same thoughts, which I shared with him, and I don&#8217;t remember what he said. (I wasn&#8217;t impressed.)</p>
<p>Kant, I&#8217;m sure, wouldn&#8217;t be impressed with brainscans of heteronomous motivation. Of course, the mystery for people looking for Kantian normative bindingness is how autonomous motivation would look any different. The mystery for utilitarians is to find computations of involving their peculiar philosophic conception of utility. Neither thing is happening.</p>
<p>This stuff is relevant in only an ought-implies-can sort of way. My sense is that the brainscan stuff refutes hard deontology and hard utilitarianism. The motivational and cognitive requirements of either theory are impossible for us to satisfy, and therefore not obligatory.</p>
<p>I think actual, effective, non-utopian morality&#8211;the sort of thing that actually does enable peaceful cooperative social order&#8211;involves culturally relative, but psychologically strict-seeming, norms that engender a sense of categorical deontic restriction and obligation. But different contexts elicit different norms. Paradoxes arise when we can&#8217;t resolve the context. Sometimes no norm is called. In the absence of a default deontic-seeming norm that internalizes and automates the calculation, on-the-spot prudential or consequentialist calculation may be called for.</p>
<p>My take reading the Greene, Haidt, etc., stuff is that the fight between Kant and Bentham is sort of irrelevant. The laurels go to a Darwinized version of Hume and Smith.</p>
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